Frw Koslov

But are they actually being "used" as that? News reels show what the people filming want to show. "Here is a mighty German artillery battery all armed to the teeth with our wonder weapon - the 88mm" - if you were going to stage fire such a line up, you'd do it somewhere safe and point them in the air... Koslov

Nope, I maintain my viewpoint that the war in the east had no angels - that is a view that takes no sides other than I am just glad I was not there. It is pointless to argue "who started it" and as adults, lets not even go there. As for the "subhuman" word, which is something it is not good to start banding around, did you know (and I know you might all view this cynically) that from late in 44 onwards, Osttruppen and other foreign volunteers of the Reich were to recieve the emancipation (sp?) the same as good Deutchevolk ie recieve recieve land etc etc when the war was won. I don't believe the order was issued, but it was drawn up and signed off. I'll take Sevastapol, I have heard its nice on the beach near there Frw. Koslov

Mike, you are right. Look at cammo patterns from the world and you will see what their native terrain looks like. Thought the new Canadian stuff was interesting as it showed a change from force projection into Europe (ie Brit style DPM) to something that I think is more "Canadian" home defence suitable. When is the next Canadian/American war scheduled for ? Koslov

Hr Stacheldraht, I agree with your terminal figure of 800,000 ish volunteers in '45 - my sources are a report from the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories dated Jan '45 which says 748,000 plus 60,000 odd Estonians. There are soo many reasons why the Osttruppen situation has become blurred, not least of which is the sellout of them by the British government post WW2 (ie post Churchill) and the lack of a view on their possible use against Communism a la WW1. Churchill was all in favour of carrying on his White Russian war post WW1... the Americans realising this much too late. As for attrocities, well, I saw what I always say, in the East you can only say the victors write the history. Everyone involved was as bad as the others - in this part of the world slaughter of your neighbours because of some centuries old grudge is par for the course - see Yugoslavia for a good example of this. Do not think for one minute that every Osttruppen was united as POA! The Germans quickly identified this problem and hence the various factions that made up the Legions. Frw. Koslov

Eric, Not strictly true, they may have used their HAA batteries as arty because of a lack of real guns or howitzers. There was a classic incident North West of Caen where a non-Lufty officer came across one of 16FD(L)'s HAA 88mm batteries and asked them to engage Allied armour. The battery commander told him to poke off as they were a Flak unit and not trained in engaging ground targets. The senior officer then draws his pistol and points out that unless the battery commander co-operates he will be shot dead on the spot. 17FD(L) (which could not be considered a particularly well turned out Feld Division) had 105mm guns and 150mm howitzers in 17LAR. On the issue of indirect fire from 88's, I believe it maybe possible, but highly unlikely and not something you would see happen - there are just too many more suitable weapons to do this with to bother. Incidently, talking of smallarms indirect fire, never seen a SMLE used for indirect fire (or even mentioned in the training manuals) but the Vickers is capable of indirect when fitted with basically a mortar type sight it can provide fire out to 4000yds (included in the training manual). This was done in WW1 to provide area harassing fire onto the enemy's rear postions. Frw. Koslov (re-enactor of 835 Ostbattailon, Luftwaffen Feld Division 17)

Mr Skipper, A few facts about Osttruppen: Estimates show that there were 1.5-2million eastern troops fighting for the Reich over the period of WW2. In 1945 there were actually MORE volunteers listed for active duty than at any time previous. October '44 there were 220,000 Ukrainians in a direct military role plus tens of thousands of special police units. I do not agree that these (or any other Eastern Legion troops) were "traitors" - they had suffered extrememly badly from both badly managed food distribution/deliberate starvation (take you pick) and the Red Terror which raged through the non-Russian states far more so than in "the Rodina". On the issue of their treatment after the war, yes Soviet POW's (ie Soviet troops in German POW camps)were handed back and unless any evidence of collaboration was given they were free to go. Many were not as Stalin believed many should never have allowed themselves to be captured... On the other hand, ALL Eastern volunteers handed over were shot or sent to Siberia to be worked to death. I know of no account of any survivors other than those who escaped Allied capture in the first place. It does not surprise me in the least that people who say "my family came from xxxx and I didn't know about it" - does anyone really think Stalin would have broadcast the level at which his people volunteered to fight against his system? It is a very, very hard subject to research, but... Frw. Koslov (re-enactor of 835 Ostbattailon, Luftwaffen-Feld-Division 17)