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The Great T-34/85-Panther VG debate rev.

ARRPEEGEE

By ARRPEEGEE
in Combat Mission Archive #4 (2002)

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gunnergoz Senior Member

gunnergoz

Posted
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Cat got your tongue, Spook? :D

I'd vote for the T-34/85 if it were leading a whole Guards Mechanized Army in the late war days, with the experienced leadership and support that that implies.

One on one, the Panther has the better engineering and details, but it needed good maintenance behind it to keep it up.

On the other hand, the Russians could produce T34/85's until the Cows Come Home, and the Germans never really got production of the Panther ramped up into the same league as the Russians.

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dalem Senior Member

dalem

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Posted
Originally posted by mch:

Ok..Am I the only one who's looking forward (in the extreme) to see what the CM take on this one is?

I still got my $20 on the /85 smile.gif

I think you're gonna lose. I don't have much respect for the German junkyard crap but the T-34/85 isn't going to match up well one for one. Inferior gun, inferior armor. Tactically, that is enough to call it.

-dale

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ARRPEEGEE Senior Member

ARRPEEGEE

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I think you're gonna lose. I don't have much respect for the German junkyard crap but the T-34/85 isn't going to match up well one for one. Inferior gun, inferior armor. Tactically, that is enough to call it
You forgot speed and relative target size..Now where's that fast to hull down command :)At the range of a typical CMBO battle, they'd be about even, I think-and I'm sure I'll know in about a minute if I'm wrong, but..If BB can whip up some nice 'ol 3000m tank fights, I'd have to bet on the Panther, too.
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PiggDogg Senior Member

PiggDogg

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Guys,

Panther vs. T34/85, one on one, equal quality crews, go with the Panther. The significant majority of the time, but not always, the Panther should win.

However, in the real war, many T34s, much arty, & many infantry versus fewer Panthers, less arty, & few infantry, go with the T34s & pals. :eek:

One must work his advantage. Both the Western Allies and the Russians worked their advantage of numbers (air, tank, arty, & men) and beat the Germans despite the German's slight technical, tactical, and man for man superiority. Too bad for the Germans. smile.gif

Cheers, Richard :D

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gunnergoz Senior Member

gunnergoz

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One really nice thing about the game is that you can of course test such hypothetical matches out. Part of the equation has to be, what sort of engagement is envisioned? Who's attacking and who's defending? What is the terrain, time of day, weather, etc, etc.

The best answer might arise out of a series of designed trials, like 3 of each tank going against each other, using different scenarios and starting ranges, terrain, etc.

I'll bet the answers are ambiguous and show that, under certain circumstances, either tank could be fought to victory.

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Commissar Senior Member

Commissar

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All things being equal, the Panther will win hands down. Better optics, more powerful 75mm gun, and most likely a high-trained crew will put the Soviet tankers at a disadvantage. However, that does not mean a T-34/85 can be ignored and it cannot be merely assumed that the crew is poor simply because they are Russian. The 85mm gun does give the old T-34 design a much needed upgrade for its main armament and proper tactics can insure one less German glamour cat on the battlefield. A good shot on the flank or rear on tank will pretty much assure its destruction with a decent main gun.

With the Soviets, you can be sure they will make it so that the situation never is equal.

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Barrold Senior Member

Barrold

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Gunnergoz makes a great point about the system and something that is to be looked forward to in CM:BB.

Finding those new tools in the unit inventory that will provide the margin of victory in the various types of scenarios we soon will all be playing.

Having the plethora of relatively unknown early war equipment to explore is going to bring a great deal of entertainment to this path of discovery.

6 days!

BDH

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Nippy Senior Member

Nippy

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Of course I can't find the book now, but I did read of an encounter between JS-2's and KT's during the Russian Spring offensive during 1945. The Germans launched a local counter attack lead by KT's. They proptly ran into an equal number of JS-2. The battle ended with a draw, both sides lost a few tanks and the Germans were forced to retreat.

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Bastables Senior Member

Bastables

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Originally posted by mch:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think you're gonna lose. I don't have much respect for the German junkyard crap but the T-34/85 isn't going to match up well one for one. Inferior gun, inferior armor. Tactically, that is enough to call it

You forgot speed and relative target size..Now where's that fast to hull down command :)At the range of a typical CMBO battle, they'd be about even, I think-and I'm sure I'll know in about a minute if I'm wrong, but..If BB can whip up some nice 'ol 3000m tank fights, I'd have to bet on the Panther, too.</font>
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Hannibal Barca Junior Member

Hannibal Barca

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The t34/85 is no match to the Panther G on paper, but in the field, the "little" soviet was faster and, over all, it took as much resources to built 4 Panther than 6 T34. With more units, a soviet commander can split his force, round the enemy with his faster t34, and hit from opposite angles.

It's how the soviets destroyed the german panzer forces

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zukkov Senior Member

zukkov

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Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

T-34/85 vs. Panther will probably be a lot like Sherm 76 vs. Panther. I'll put my money on the Panther, especially at longer ranges.

i was thinking the same thing. only difference might be the 85 has a better he round than the sherman 76. as a soviet player though, i look forward to having some is-2s going up against tigers and panthers. it will be nice to finally have something that they fear on the battlefield. lol..
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tools4fools Senior Member

tools4fools

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Originally posted by Hannibal Barca:

IS 2 is to late for me. My choice is the SU-152, available at Kursk, aka "the animal killer" for the number of Elephant, Panter and Tiger they destroyed.

The 6" AT shell was able to beat the frontal of a Panther at... 1000 m. smile.gif

Indeed. At 1.5 shots per minute. Expect 4-5 coming back your way if you didn't hit with the first shot.

*goes to practice the "Shoot and scoot" command*

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Bastables Senior Member

Bastables

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Posted
Originally posted by tools4fools:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hannibal Barca:

IS 2 is to late for me. My choice is the SU-152, available at Kursk, aka "the animal killer" for the number of Elephant, Panter and Tiger they destroyed.

The 6" AT shell was able to beat the frontal of a Panther at... 1000 m. smile.gif

Indeed. At 1.5 shots per minute. Expect 4-5 coming back your way if you didn't hit with the first shot.

*goes to practice the "Shoot and scoot" command*</font>

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Denizen Member

Denizen

Posted
Posted

Hey folks, don't forget about the HVAP ammo for the T34/85. With 120mm penetration at 1000m HVAP could knock out the Panther from a front turret shot at 1000m, and lets not ignore the the fact that the T34 had better side turret, rear turret, hull side and hull rear armor than the panther ever did... :cool:

[ September 15, 2002, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Denizen ]

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