Redwolf Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 I like the new vehicle turn rate system, which means slower turns but more importantly it does not ouright punish all slow tanks with even slower turn rate as CMBO did. Not all slow tanks were slowe turners. However, if you order a fast move off an angle from the current position, then the tank will turn much faster into the direction of the fast move than it will rotate with a rotate command. Times, all for 90 degrees turn: - Jagdpanther turning into fast move: 15 seconds (including 7 seconds command delay) - Jagdpanther turn command 90 degress: 31 seconds (no delay) - Tiger (Pz VIE) 90 degress into fast move: 14 seconds (including 6 seconds command delay) - Same with rotate command: 41 seconds (no delay) I consider this to be a bug, the turn rate on the rotate command should be the maximum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 If you are saying that a tank should turn faster from a standstill than while on the move, I disagree. From a physics point of view, your line of logic makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 And, assuming that my previous post follows you correctly, BFC posted this as a new feature for CMBB: Halted vehicles rotate their hulls more slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: And, assuming that my previous post follows you correctly, BFC posted this as a new feature for CMBB: Halted vehicles rotate their hulls more slowly.Yeah But...... If I understand this correctly this is sort of a form of cheating the standing still rotation penalty. "However, if you order a fast move off an angle from the current position, then the tank will turn much faster into the direction of the fast move than it will rotate with a rotate command." So why rotate? Just FAST move in the new direction? that sounds like a gamey "work around" to defeat the standing still rotate penalty? NO? :confused: -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 When a tank goes into movement, and the movement command was off its original standing axis, then it will rotate first and then move (the same as in CMBO). So I really compare a rotate and a rotate, but one is from the rotate command and the other from a move command, however, you can just order the movement endpoint to be 1m (or less) away from the original position off the vehicle and get a twice as fast rotation, with no significant movement. This is not all all the same thing as a rotation out of a turn while going high speed. [ September 22, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Sounds like this could use a little more work alright. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRSutton Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 If I am not mistaken a stationary tank can rotate faster than a moving one. That is, the vehicle can espend all of its energy in the turn instead of having to expend energy in forward or rear motion I know airplanes and ships can turn faster and tighter at slower speeds. To a point that is . What about it? Any experienced tankers out there that can answer this question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallybob Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Yeah, 16 years on the buggers. Pivot steering IS in fact faster than turning on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 I see what you're saying now. I can place a fast move order to a nonmoving tank, assigning it to move 180 degrees from the initial point, and that tank will - after a time delay - rotate very quickly to 180 degrees of its initial heading, then set off at speed. This initial rotation will be much faster than a rotation command for the same heading change. Well, one could either explain it away by assuming that the initial rotation from a fast move is a 'shortcut' of a very tight turn under movement, or one could suggest to BFC that they impose some sort of rotational inertia function much like the translational inertia function in place for tanks that begin movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce70 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by CRSutton: If I am not mistaken a stationary tank can rotate faster than a moving one. That is, the vehicle can espend all of its energy in the turn instead of having to expend energy in forward or rear motion I know airplanes and ships can turn faster and tighter at slower speeds. To a point that is . What about it? Any experienced tankers out there that can answer this question?I have driven tracked vehicles before but no tanks. I think a moving tank would be able to turn faster because of its momentum - just apply the clutch/brake on one side and let momentum take care of the rest. Of course this would only work for about 60 degree (pure guesstimate) turns and under. A stationary tank would certainly be faster for larger turns since it can rotate the tracks in opposite directions and double its turn speed (sort of). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: Well, one could either explain it away by assuming that the initial rotation from a fast move is a 'shortcut' of a very tight turn under movement, or one could suggest to BFC that they impose some sort of rotational inertia function much like the translational inertia function in place for tanks that begin movement.I think that is a no-go, and that is because a vehicle turning in self-defense will (not tested) use the slow rate, and people will rightfully bitch that the self-defense must of course use the fastest turn rate. Remember that the manul method is about twice as fast, people will be forced to turn-by-move all the time, which is a completely useless thing to require. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecumseh Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by Wallybob: Yeah, 16 years on the buggers. Pivot steering IS in fact faster than turning on the move.Off topic a bit, but... Can you tell me what would happen if you are travelling fast in a tank and slam on the brakes to one track? If that's even possible, would it result in a quicker rate of turn than pivot steering? Also, do modern tanks turning on the spot use one track forward and one track in reverse? I know nothing about this subject, but it's interesting! It would seem to me that turn rate would be directly related to the difference between the speeds of the two tracks. [Edit - thanks Bruce70 i missed your post] [ September 23, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: tecumseh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by tecumseh: Can you tell me what would happen if you are travelling fast in a tank and slam on the brakes to one track?Depends on the tank and what shape it is in. You would be in danger of breaking/throwing a tread. In some cases, you would be in very grave danger indeed. For instance, the early war British tanks were very prone to do this, especially the light tanks. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecumseh Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 OK, so no 180º bootlegger turn then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 My bud, Jeff, an ex-tanker corrected me about tank turns. Redwolf is right, as long as a tank had the ability to either:</font> operate both tracks in opposite directions. It's referred to as neutral steering.</font> brake one track, then operate the other track. Sort of a half-neutral steer. </font>Some tanks could do neither, for example, the M4 Sherman tank, and should have a slower standing turn. But, the majority probably should have a faster turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphon Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Tiger could rotate helluva fast though. Often (from what i read anyway) they would turn the whole vehicle towards the target instead of the turret. I was hoping this would be the case in CMBB too. Regards, Gryphon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Good observation redwolf, hope to see this fixed in version 1.01! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: My bud, Jeff, an ex-tanker corrected me about tank turns. Redwolf is right, as long as a tank had the ability to either:</font> operate both tracks in opposite directions. It's referred to as neutral steering.</font> brake one track, then operate the other track. Sort of a half-neutral steer. </font>Some tanks could do neither, for example, the M4 Sherman tank, and should have a slower standing turn. But, the majority probably should have a faster turn.This came up in CMBO too. (especially with Sherms, no neutral steer vs Tiger I with neutral steer). What is needed is a complete list of vehicles with neutral steer and without. It would be my guess (I could be wrong here) that BFC have correctly and accurately penalized tanks that had NO neutral steer capability with the rotation delay which is a welcome addition to the game! (Yeah) However the "gamey" (cheating) work around to this (probably) historically accurate standing still rotation delay (probably accurately researched and well implimented ) is to JUST move or FAST move in a new direction without and attendant rotation penalty. My guess is it should be looked at for the next patch. (I hope) -tom w [ September 23, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: My bud, Jeff, an ex-tanker corrected me about tank turns. Redwolf is right, as long as a tank had the ability to either:</font> operate both tracks in opposite directions. It's referred to as neutral steering.</font> brake one track, then operate the other track. Sort of a half-neutral steer. </font>Some tanks could do neither, for example, the M4 Sherman tank, and should have a slower standing turn. But, the majority probably should have a faster turn.Excuse me, I am also right for tanks where this is not the case Because the turn at the beginning of a fast move is just a plain turn of a standing tank, exactly like a rotate command is. Or in just another set of words: the freaking tank stands and turns in place in both cases. It does not really matter that the second case is the beginning of a fast move, because at that point in time the tank did not move a single meter from its original position. I am not at all talking about different tanks and their capabilities here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grisha: My bud, Jeff, an ex-tanker corrected me about tank turns. Redwolf is right, as long as a tank had the ability to either:</font> operate both tracks in opposite directions. It's referred to as neutral steering.</font> brake one track, then operate the other track. Sort of a half-neutral steer. </font>Some tanks could do neither, for example, the M4 Sherman tank, and should have a slower standing turn. But, the majority probably should have a faster turn.Excuse me, I am also right for tanks where this is not the case Because the turn at the beginning of a fast move is just a plain turn of a standing tank, exactly like a rotate command is. Or in just another set of words: the freaking tank stands and turns in place in both cases. It does not really matter that the second case is the beginning of a fast move, because at that point in time the tank did not move a single meter from its original position. I am not at all talking about different tanks and their capabilities here.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wol Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 How fast a tank turns depends on what kind of kind of steering it has, and sometimes whether it is moving or not. If clutch and brake, then only half power is usually available for turns (Clutch and brake one side, flat out on the other side.) If moving at speed, and the vehicle is up to it, you can turn faster because you have more energy, but you will not turn as tightly. Some may even have pivots (sort of special brakes), just yank them on and hang on. If you have regenerative steering, power can be either directed to the working side, or if stationary, (and if so configured) reverse the offside track, neutral steering. Many British vehicles had pre-selectable regenerative turn radii. Suppose your motoring along, want to turn right, select tightness of turn, and watch the gearbox do the work. This allows for faster, and far less fatiguing turning on the move. Elephants, as I recall, had electric drive with complete flexibility, and CharB1bis also had fully regenerative steering (I think). Any way, how fast you turn depends on whether moving or stationary (You at least have to accelerate the vehicle fron stationary just as if you were taking off), It also depends on whether you can convert all the engine power to power one track, or must lose half of it, and whether you can, reverse one track if stationary. Of ourse the longer the vehicle, and the weaker the tracks, the more likely you are to shedd them, and then you are in trouble! Wol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecumseh Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Bump. Redwolf's first post to me is completely self explanatory and sounds like an obvious bug that needs to be addressed. The rest is just mindless discussion to keep the thread afloat. So is the bren an LMG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecumseh Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Seen any good movies lately tom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by tecumseh: Seen any good movies lately tom?Hi is that a reference to a in game movie in a PBEM? or I am just confused? :confused: -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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