derb Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Playing Korsun Relief and the "advanced tutorial" scenario I couldn't get my Russian tanks to stick around in LOS of Panthers and Tigers. This meant that at best my tanks would roll up a hill, fire a single shot, then run away - involuntary "shoot & scoot". At medium to long range this meant they never really fired accurately enough to hit, so even though I outnumbered the enemy he was able to slowly whittle down my tanks. Have you all come across this problem? Is there any way you've come up with to deal with it? I know that I wouldn't want to be up against a Panther but even so this seems a rather excessively cowardly attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Yes, I experienced this in many situations .. Even JS-2 facing Panthers act like sissies ! As it is Sovs are dead meat when facing big cats at long distance in open areas, cause they don't advance as fast as they should to close up and get a chance due to their numbers ... And did you ever try to quickrun an exposed Truck or HT to safety behind a house or woods ? This *sshole reverse IN FULL VIEW of enemies and get wrecked instead of following orders that'll give it chance !! :mad: It was "somewhat" realistic when Allied vehicles did that in CMBO , Western crews were concerned by self survival, but Sovs did'nt behave like that - or were not given the opportunity to :eek: ! We NEED political commissars to shoot those cowards ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I have the same problem with Soviet tanks too. Try fighting Stug's with SU-76s. I tried a test using the Mission Builder. SU-85's and T-34/76s will run away from Stugs, but these very same Stugs would stand and fight against JS-3s and T-44s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Pascal, Rotmistrov, Commander of 5th Guards Tank army prior to the Army's Counterattack at Prokhorovka did emphasize to his Tankcommanders the importance that they should not stop to engage the germans at long range, but instead close to under 500m with highest possible speed (Because of fear of the Tigers). At the end of 12. July the leftovers of this Army had to dig in their tanks. Because it was like shooting on the range for the germans, II.PzReg1 (LAH) alone killed over 100 russian tanks. The 3 Tigers in combat vs. 5th GT accounted for around 20-30 (Wittmann being one of them). After the battle the Russians counted 400 burned out tankhulls on the Prokhorovka battlefield the overwhelming majority being russian tanks. Rotmistrovs fear of the Tigers actually destroyed 5th GT in one day of fighting.. Closing fast with the enemy for T-34s in 1943 is important but one should not forget to do this in bounds and keep firing or otherwise the germans enjoy happy shooting. Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derb Posted November 14, 2002 Author Share Posted November 14, 2002 Trouble is if you are shooting at Germans a long way away you will probably need to stay visible and stay still for more than one shot so your chances of a hit will improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Nippy but these very same Stugs would stand and fight against JS-3s and T-44s!...and die prematurely in a fiery explosion. For the Stugs you're right, but strangely many times they trow smoke and backup while some turns later they stand to fight. (Influence of global moral or just plain random who knows). For the cowardice of T-34, one should reflect upon the fact, that although the Soviets produced around 1000-1500 T-34 a month in 1943 and 44 many hundreds were also destroyed. (Beginning 1943 Red Army had 15'000 tanks in it's arsenals and most probable around 20'000 at the end of the year). 5th GTA was virtually destroyed at Prokhorovka and a burnt out hull at 17th July 1943 with it's handful of tanks digged in defensive posture. Less then a month later 5th GTA took part in the Russian Rumjantsev Offensive with over 400 tanks again. Where did this new tanks and crews come from ? I bet the russian tankcrews had a healthy dose of respect toward the german tankarm and the Heavies in particular. Btw. 5th GTA again faced their Nemesis near Bogodukhov in form of the 2nd SS PzKorps and again was stopped and severly mauled...... Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robohn Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Yes, I've had this problem. I had a captured Stug F pop out on the side of a Tiger about 200m away. It didn't even take a shot before scampering away like a whipped dog. At that range, it's 75mm/L48 could have easily scored a kill on a Tiger, but it never even tried. Robohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I haven't played enough to experience any of this but it's dissappointing. Doesn't it make it impossible to win in many scenarios if the tanks refuse to engage the enemy they are faced with?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 HULL DOWN you poor sods, hull down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derb Posted November 14, 2002 Author Share Posted November 14, 2002 They seem disinclined even to engage when hull down. They prefer to be "turret down" (ie invisible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Kije Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Just a note from the other side of the hill. This problem of refusing to engage a scary enemy tank cuts both ways. German armor in 1942 will fire smoke/retreat upon sight of a KV-1, even if you order Target while in LOS at the beginning of a turn. You aren't experiencing a singularly Russian psychology here. -- Lt. Kije Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 i've been playing only 1941 so far, but have developed two scenarios with large numbers of green soviet tanks on the attack... i find that they are very brave... why just yesterday i sent 50 bt-7 tanks out and lost 32 within 17 turns... it's always that same thing... driblets and not mass... splitting forces is deadly... but bunching them up can be too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Waht idiot would EXPECT "his" tanks to sit in plain view of Tigers or Panthers?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 MasterGoodale writes: "Doesn't it make it impossible to win..." Well, it also makes it kind'a hard to win to have your T34-76s all be killed while attempting long-range duels with Panthers! Even if you were to stand your ground & score multiple hits I'd lay all my money on the Panther. Sometimes a King Tiger on a ridgeline is a King Tiger on a ridgeline, and no tweaking of the game commands will change that. [ November 14, 2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I had a pair of SU-100 and ISU-122, hulldowning in front of Panzer IV's (L/48). They retreat, out of hulldown, where the IVs are hull-up. I had to come to the conclusion that CMBB 1.0 has code in it that will make Soviet AFVs flee from Germans in situations where both can kill each other, and even if the Soviet one is stronger (can still be killed, but more likely is a dead Panzer) and in the stronger position (hulldown, flank etc). I really hope this is a bug introduced elsewhere and no nationality characteristics coding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: I had a pair of SU-100 and ISU-122, hulldowning in front of Panzer IV's (L/48). They retreat, out of hulldown, where the IVs are hull-up. Andd........?? What's your point? yuo had 3 tanks - all of which can be killed by the bad guys - how many did they have? Waht was your morale? How much ammo did yuo have? Were your guys actually lined up on the enemy? What did your tanks THINK the P-4's were? How long until your guys got their next shot off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derb Posted November 15, 2002 Author Share Posted November 15, 2002 Problem is in the Korsun pocket scenario at least I outnumbered the Germans maybe 2:1 and most of my tanks could kill most of his if they hit them (they were SU85s and 122s and 152s). If they had stayed long enough to adjust their sights that is - and maybe 1/2 of them would have died. But the other 1/2 would have killed off his tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Obviously just running T34s to close range with Tigers won't always make Sovs win, but at least I want to TRY ! :eek: As it is done it's worst than everything, they only are targets and never fire nor approach ... And I'm amazed that SU-100s do the same thing : these beasts can kill anything from 1km away , they were DESIGNED as Germs heavies killers ! However I also noted that Crack Pz38(t) crews in '41 were NOT afraid of KV-2s !! :eek: They should... Has this stg to do with experience ? Do Russians "enjoy" 1-level lessened experience in this as with command delays ?? Wondering ... :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Daahhhh, kids! You have to put yourself in the psychological shoes of your tank crews. Certainly you can't just pop up and start some Gary Cooper, High Noon shoot out with a serious threat. Might happen, depending on the quality of the tank crew, and perhaps the psychological profile of that crew in the coding. What I've seen is the same reluctance by armored units, both German and Russian which seems particularly accute when they are either surprised by a serious threat, or ordered to engage from something less than a favorable position. Those same units however, again in my experience, will engage if care and patience is taken to place them into a nice snug hull down position, or when they have the element of surprise on their side. Say, by patiently moving them into a position where the enemy doesn't see them, or is preoccupied with another unit (which is the same as not seeing them). At that point, the lil fellers will gladly take out the enemy tank or at least try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRSutton Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 This can really be a problem expecially with green crews and perhaps could use a little tweaking. However, If I was a T34 tank commander and was given the order to engage a panther frontally, I would shoot my commander and then myself. Might as well make it easier on the next guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Mike: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf: I had a pair of SU-100 and ISU-122, hulldowning in front of Panzer IV's (L/48). They retreat, out of hulldown, where the IVs are hull-up. Andd........?? What's your point? yuo had 3 tanks - all of which can be killed by the bad guys - how many did they have? Waht was your morale? How much ammo did yuo have? Were your guys actually lined up on the enemy? What did your tanks THINK the P-4's were? How long until your guys got their next shot off?</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: Daahhhh, kids! You have to put yourself in the psychological shoes of your tank crews. Certainly you can't just pop up and start some Gary Cooper, High Noon shoot out with a serious threat. Might happen, depending on the quality of the tank crew, and perhaps the psychological profile of that crew in the coding. What I've seen is the same reluctance by armored units, both German and Russian which seems particularly accute when they are either surprised by a serious threat, or ordered to engage from something less than a favorable position. Those same units however, again in my experience, will engage if care and patience is taken to place them into a nice snug hull down position, or when they have the element of surprise on their side. Say, by patiently moving them into a position where the enemy doesn't see them, or is preoccupied with another unit (which is the same as not seeing them). At that point, the lil fellers will gladly take out the enemy tank or at least try.Fine theory of human behaviour. So when did this has been added to CM, and why only to Soviet vehicles? Also, I have the savegames from my game, and my hulldown positions of the ISU-122 against the hull-up, correctly identified Mk IVs couldn't get better than it was. There's wasn't infantry near it either, in case somebody drags up that theory. [ November 15, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizee Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 i had the same at jägermeister as my js-2´2 refused to take any shot at teh panthers amd tigers. i had multiple sitiuations where i outmanouvered the german panzers and instead of takin a sure 300 m sideshot at a sitting panther the backed up etc. funny enuff that my first killed panther came due to a misidetification. a js-2 idetified it as a p4 and brewed him up with the first shot, at around 700 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 redwolf wrote: So when did this has been added to CM, and why only to Soviet vehicles? They have tweaked the profiles for the unit command and morale structure as I understood it. Which means troops are going to act differently than in CMBO. More likely to react to enemy fire, enemy strenghts, and terrain LOS calculations. Why Soviet vehicles only? I'm not the one claiming it is only Soviet vehicles. Personally, I see the behavior happening with both German and Soviet vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Hey, if you want to slug it out frontally and at extended ranges, my veteran and elite Tiger/Panther crews will be more than happy to oblige. Don't expect green crews to fight like experienced veterans and be as brave. And what the hell are you doing trying to get into shooting matches with Tigers while using T-34/76's? Ranged duels WERE the Big Cat's game. As far as IS-2s are concerned, I can still kill with a fair chance an IS-2 with the long 75s found on AFVs such as the Panther and Panzer IV/70. IS-2s are powerful but are definitely not invincible frontally. Come on guys, change tactics. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you for some reason got into a fight with a guy 2-3 times your size, are you going to stand there toe to toe punching each other in the face? No! [ November 15, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Warmaker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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