Men are tired too easily?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by xerxes:

Just to stir the pot, I use run a great deal in CMBB. I use run probably three times as much as I use advance. I rarely use advance because I'm allergic to moving under fire.

Running has it's risks but it certainly uptempos the attack.

HT mounted infantry certainly does the same too. As long as those pesky ATR are dealt with.

Good point. I used run a lot in BO and I am regaining confidence in using it in BB too. The thing is to use it when there isn't going to be a lot of fire directed at the running unit, and to keep it to pretty short stretches, 50-70 meters at most. Some times if I think there is a threat, I will have them run 40 meters and advance the rest. I will also have them stop and hide even if it is in the middle of an open area, just so they can catch their breath. If I do stop them in the open, I try to pick a low spot so there is some protection, though to tell the truth I don't know how much the game acknowledges that.

And you're right about those dandy halftracks too. And their MGs come in right handy for providing suppressive fire.

Michael

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by DekeFentle:

I need to weigh in on this one folks. Personal experience has left me with a vivid memory...

Thanks for the personal perspective, DekeFentle.

How long do you think it took you to cover the first 100m, and how long for the next 20?

[ November 14, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Brian Rock ]

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by PiggDogg:

Thanks for the test and results. In the just above test, what were the parameters of the "shorter bounds" that you mentioned? :confused:

Basically run for a turn or two, rest, repeat. The distances tend to get shorter over time.

I'm figuring the way best way to do this (subject to terrain, weather, enemy activity, etc) might be to use bounding overwatch.

The first group advances for one turn (about 60m or so) and stops for a turn. The second group advances for a turn and a half (about 90m) and stops while the first group bounds past. Eg:

Group 1: A..R..A..R..A..R..A..R..A..R..

Group 2: A..A..R..A..R..A..R..A..R..A..

(A= Advance, R= Rest)

Distance-wise it would be:

Group 1: 60..60..120..120..180..180..240..

Group 2: 60..90..90...150..150..210..210..

Now that I'm all inspired I want to test this on the weekend.

[PiggDogg]

Brain,

Thanks for the explanation.

So about 60 meters is the correct number. It is not a far distance, but one must live with what one has.

I suspect that you saw DekeFentle's post about his real life experience. Deke's experience pretty well supports CMBB's infantry model.

As a nice real life exercise, I guess that one should all load up a backpack with about 30 pounds of oranges, grapefruits, apples, and blankets (one's light field pack). Also, carry a 12 pound salami (one's rifle). Then one should jog and zig zag from bush to tree to hedge across the lawns of your neighbors homes. :eek:

After about 100 meters, one should observe how he feels. After about 200 & then at 300 meters, one should again observe how he feels.

After this, one should oberve how long it takes to gain enough strength to run forward another 80 meters and slap the salami around your neighbor's dog's head. Then one can feed the salami to the dog for his part and pain in this experiment. The dog will love the salami carrier.

Can one get the idea?! :confused: BB ain't bad and, in fact, is quite accurate in its infantry model.

Cheers, Richard :cool:

[Brian Rock]

We need to re-create the sense of high-risk.

To complete the test suppose we have a few guys hiding with paintball guns, and everytime you get splatted one of them kicks you in the nuts.

[DekeFentle]

Originally posted by Brian Rock:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DekeFentle:

I need to weigh in on this one folks. Personal experience has left me with a vivid memory...

Thanks for the personal perspective, DekeFentle.

How long do you think it took you to cover the first 100m, and how long for the next 20?</font>

[Brian Rock]

Split the difference and call it six minutes.

300m in 6 min = 3km/hr, which is a bit faster than my 3rd squad (who didn't get exhausted @ 2.2km/hr) and a bit slower than my 2nd squad (who were exhausted, and at that distance averaged 5.0km/hr).

Not a perfect fit, but close enough for me.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Brian Rock:

Split the difference and call it six minutes.

300m in 6 min = 3km/hr, which is a bit faster than my 3rd squad (who didn't get exhausted @ 2.2km/hr) and a bit slower than my 2nd squad (who were exhausted, and at that distance averaged 5.0km/hr).

Not a perfect fit, but close enough for me.

So the Staff Table data are almost spot on!

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

In that case, what's to stop you giving it a Hunt command? It will ignore the routed crew but stop if it spots something that could do it serious harm.

Hunt moves at half the speed.

Eden

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

So the Staff Table data are almost spot on!

Hey, Mark! Glad you could join us.

I meant to post the Staff Tables today. Considering I got them from you, would you care to post them here?

[Quenaelin]

I am just trying to explain that I don't like this game becouse men are tired too easily. I think it is unrealistic and under estimates capabilities of soldier, CMB0 is much realistic in this way. Now everybody in this forum are trying to explain to me how realistic this game is and so on so on. I just don't beleave this, becouse I have been running in the forrest in battle gear a lot in the army, we used to have running march competition when we were running in battle gear (without backpack, about 25 pounds total weight carried) about 5 km on the forrest road and squad which was winner was awarder whole weekend vacation. So couple of meters running in the forrest cannot exhaust normal soldier in same extent like in this game.

[Fetchez la Vache]

When I was in the UK TA I could quite happily go for a nice 10km run with battlekit on (although I was pretty fit from marathon training at the time). But give me 300m of 'pepper-potting' and I was knackered.

And tbh I don't have a issue with moving my lads around in CMBB. As I said before, I keep it short and sweet and don't have a problem. It's only when I try to keep my infantry be-bopping along at the same speed as the AFV's for several minutes at a stretch that I have problems.

[Massattack]

Quaenelin, there is a world of difference in winning the regimental prize for completing a 5km jog along a forest road, and advancing in alternating overwatch through rough forest terrain, expecting real enemy fire at any moment. If at this stage you don't understand the exact meaning of the command "advance" in CMBB then you never will. You are as entitled to your opinion about the rate of tiring in CMBB as anyone, but the majority of experienced players here seem to feel it is right, bar some tweaking with the sneak command. My advice is sell the game as you do not sound as if you will be happy with it.

Regards

Massattack

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

When I was in the UK TA I could quite happily go for a nice 10km run with battlekit on (although I was pretty fit from marathon training at the time). But give me 300m of 'pepper-potting' and I was knackered.

UK TA? What a bunch of weenies. You would never have made it in the Finnish Army where men never tire, old boy. Now go and have yourself a nice cuppa.

Pah!

[TSword]

I have no problems also with tiring speed in general. Only HMG-teams tire a bit to fast IMO.

A veteran Fit rested squad can do around 140 m with Run in one turn not going below ready state, however then it needs a 30-40 sec. pause.

At average one can suspect to do 60m per turn when no enemy fire suspected, and around 40 m when enemy fire is very likely (probing, recon).

When being under fire in open terrain there's nothing better then advance, a squad may loose a man or two but seldom panic (regular or above) and reach their destination most of the time. I always plot 20 m Run and then around 20-30 m advance but seldom let them start before 20-30 sec. into turn.

To concealment in open terrain, in general it is bad to place a unit into low ground because it is easier spotted. Brush and grain provide good concealment when prone (depends on season), while grass and steppe are only somewhat better then open ground (but still better, i did some testing, strange that most scenarios have no grass or steppe...).

If a stealthy approach is paramount in open flat terrain, there's only the sneak command. If enemy has only a slightly elevated position he will spot enemy units in open when they move prone in grass, steppe or open, while brush and grain fields work to some extent.

Advance rates from an analysis of over 200 battles in Italy and NW-Europe:

Advance rates are given in yards per hour.

NW Europe

Day/Night Strength Opposition Distance Min Mean Max

Day Coy Slight 800 700 935 1245 2500 860 1290 1940

Day Coy Heavy 800 415 555 740 2500 510 765 1150

Day Bn Slight 800 485 645 855 2500 590 890 1355

Day Bn Heavy 800 285 380 510 2500 350 525 790

Night Coy Slight 800 555 740 990 2500 680 1025 1540

Night Coy Heavy 800 330 440 585 2500 405 610 915

Night Bn Slight 800 385 510 680 2500 470 705 1060

Night Bn Heavy 800 225 305 405 2500 280 420 630

Italy

Day/Night Strength Opposition Distance Min Mean Max

Day Coy Slight 800 545 730 970 2500 670 1005 1510

Day Coy Heavy 800 325 430 575 2500 395 595 895

Day Bn Slight 800 375 500 665 2500 460 690 1040

Day Bn Heavy 800 225 295 395 2500 275 410 615

Nit Coy Slight 800 435 580 770 2500 530 800 1200

Nit Coy Heavy 800 255 345 455 2500 315 475 710

Nit Bn Slight 800 300 395 530 2500 365 550 825

Nit Bn Heavy 800 175 235 315 2500 215 325 490

As you can see CM is quite close.

Greets

Daniel

[Swift]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

I just don't beleave this, becouse I have been running in the forrest in battle gear a lot in the army

This is the third time I say this to you: IF YOU DON'T HAVE COMBAT EXPERIENCE YOU SHOULDN'T DRAW THIS KIND OF CONCLUSIONS (excuse me for yelling but it might help). I will quote a post from the second page of this thread:

Originally posted by Brian Rock:

Just a few references to illustrate the point. While I haven't ever been under fire, I have a quote from SLA Marshall who was well acquainted with being shot at. The following is from 1954 on the subject of combat stress:

I recall July 1918, my regiment was making an 11-mile approach march to the front line. It was a balmy evening, and clear. There should have been no sweat. There was nothing particular prompting foreboding about that journey except the vast pyrotechnical display forward, raising the presumption that if the lights were that much needed, the action must be terrific.

As we arrived at the line, I was astonished to see my platoon in a state of collapse; men dropped in their tracks and could hardly remove their packs. I could not understand it. Three weeks later I was more surprised to see the same men-those who survived-shoulder the same packs and march 35 miles rearward, doing it "in a breeze." The contrast then spelled nothing more important to me than that it is easier to march away from a fight than to march into it.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

In that case, what's to stop you giving it a Hunt command? It will ignore the routed crew but stop if it spots something that could do it serious harm.

Hunt moves at half the speed.</font>

[Quenaelin]

OK, OK, I made a mistake again, my main point is that it doesn't matter how fast they move, but they just get tired and exhausted too easily.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Quenaelin:

OK, OK, I made a mistake again, my main point is that it doesn't matter how fast they move, but they just get tired and exhausted too easily.

Who says that?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by TSword:

To concealment in open terrain, in general it is bad to place a unit into low ground because it is easier spotted. Brush and grain provide good concealment when prone (depends on season), while grass and steppe are only somewhat better then open ground...

Agreed. What I was saying was that if crossing open ground where there is no possibilitiy of better cover, my assumption is that low ground is better than nothing as a place for your troops to pause and catch their breath for a turn. I may be mistaken about that unless the intervening terrain is high enough to break LOS, but so far I've had no trouble with it in lots of BO games and the few BB games I've played so far.

Michael

[ November 15, 2002, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Quenaelin]

Running can be done so that you don't get so tired, just run little bit slower and then you don't get so exthausted, I don't like when troops are just laying on the ground exthausted and then I have to put them to "sleep" for a while, that is very useless micromanaging.

[Quenaelin]

There could be somekind of intelligent run command where computer calculates how much rest your troops needs and how fast they can move in that physical condition. If they cannot run they are just moving slower, but run command still isn't disabled. When they caching their breath they start running again, in that way you can get rid of this useless micromanaging. It doesn't help nobody to play this game in this way like it is now, this needs some improvement to do.

[ November 15, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Quenaelin ]

[Massattack]

Quenaelin, you could save yourself the useless micromanaging when you learn how to use the various move commands in this game. If you use "run" and "advance" for distances too far in inappropriate terrain then do not be surprised if you exhaust your men. Either stick to the unrealistic ubersoldiers in CMBO, or adjust to the better realism of CMBB. At this stage in a very long thread either justify your arguments with valid data re tiredeness rather than mindlessly repeating your opinion that you think CMBB soldiers get tired too easily, otherwise this whole argument is going around in circles getting nowhere very fast (Lke your soldiers if you keep using advance!)

Regards

Massattack

[Quenaelin]

I have learned now, by hard way, how to move those troops, but playing this game seem to be damn dull micromanaging all the time. I would like to do this moving troops somehow easier. In CMB0 there was this one run command I could give and playing game was smooth. I didn't need to bother so much about this micromanaging, I could consentrate more in strategy and tactics.

[Andreas]

Command Post 121st Rifle Regiment, outside Kalinin.

Present: Polkovnik Andrej Biermanovich (for it is him)

Kapitan Ethan Rasienovich Haplesski (for it is him)

In the background some NKVD stooges glance menacingly at the poor Kapitan.

Pol AB: So, Tovarich Ethan, why did you fail to throw the fascist invaders out of the village, as I ordered you too?

Kp. ERH: Tovarich Polkovnik, my men were tired, from all that running, and I had to tell them to get some rest. In the exercises and in Finland, they ran much better. So there I could concentrate on tactics and strategy.

Pol. AB: You forget to mention that in Finland they ran because an Uberfinn hit them with a log - on their helmets; several times.

Kp ERH: 'Tis true he did. But they ran much better, so I thought I could continue doing that. So I had them run from the startline for two miles, and inbetween had them advance in leaps and bounds for another mile. I did not know they would tire. In fact - I once watched someone run a marathon at the 1934 Komsomolets games, and he did not tire for many miles. Shurely my men are doing something wrong, and it is STAVKA's fault for not providing me with better men. How am I supposed to know that my underfed men will tire if I give them pointless running orders for a long distance because I am bored to watch them move? I just wanted to concentrate on strategy and tactics, none of this humdrum stuff of men getting tired.

Pol AB: (after copious rolling of eyes) What about that company that got shot up by the HMG - did you not know there was an HMG covering their route?

Kp ERH: Well, by then I had figured out that if they ran a bit slower, they would not tire. I think it was completely gamey by the Hitlerites to shoot at them there. I just wanted to concentrate on strategy and tactics, you know.

Pol AB (turns to the NKVD stooges): I have had enough of this, take him away. Next!