Morale and Casualty Issues in CM

[Sgt. Beavis]

Ok, some of this has been touched upon by others and myself, but I wanted to create a new topic and go over it again.

I think that regular troops have too much of a die-to-the-last-man phenomenon. Say you have a German motorized squad of 10 men. It is fairly common to play a game and see that squad down to 3 or 4 men, still firing back at the enemy. Now I can understand that happening once in a while, but it is fairly common in the game. I have always read that 40-50% casualties are considered extreme, and the units involved were basically combat ineffective.

Basically I think units should panic, break, and rout once they are at 3-4 men out of an original 10 more often. Once they do, it should be extremely rare for regular troops to come back into the fight (i.e., they should be broken, etc. for the remainder of the game).

CM is supposed to be a simulation, and it does many things very well, but this particular aspect is not realistic; having regular troops sustain such high casualties and not break... or break, and then come back to the fight 2 or 3 turns later.

The related morale issue is that of platoon HQs and machine gun teams. It is very common to see a MG team down to 1 or 2 guys out of the original six, manning their gun, firing back at the enemy. Same with a platoon HQ unit. I have had situations where 1 guy out of 4 in an enemy HQ unit was left, less than 100 m away. I had an entire platoon of infantry firing at this one guy, and he wasn't suppressed. He was merrily firing away at my guys, inflicting casualties. Uh...no way. And this happens quite often. Platoon HQs and MG teams can take huge volumes of fire without being suppressed, much less dying.

One guy, immobile with his MG, will happily take large amounts of fire, not be suppressed, wounded, or killed, and return fire. C'mon now...it is not impossible but it shouldn't be common in the game, as it is now. There were not many Audie Murphys and... SS Totenkopf super-soldiers, immune to fear in real life. Those that tried usually didn't live long. That one guy left out of 6 in the MG team would have dropped the gun, pooped his pants, and ran off the battlefield.

As it is now, they never leave the gun. They will fire back with 84% casualties. And good luck trying to kill that last bastard. You could have a battalion of infantry and 2 tanks throwing HE at him, and he won't break or die. Unless you want to use up all of your ammo, you have to charge in and stick a knife in his gut. Of course, this lone superhero will cause one or two more casualties to your troops before he is finished. I don't quite agree with that.

Anyway, I had to vent a little Seeing these heroic last stands all the time while playing through a battle gets old. They were very rare in real life.

[Thin Red Line]

You may better play green troops... Generally they don't wait for the first casualty to retreat

[Sgt. Beavis]

You are correct, using Greenies or Conscripts will help solve the problem...

But regular troops still have a huge amount of... Elan More than I think they should have in the game.

And the last guy in a MG or HQ unit is still difficult to eliminate, without using a huge amount of ammo. Argh

[lcm1947]

I certainly agree with you but I also realize that if BTS programmed it this way it wouldn't be as much fun. I mean it is a game and while we want it to be as realistic as possible and it is damn good, there's a line between making it completely real and boring. My 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Lanzfeld]

I agree with Beavis. I hate how the troops piss away valuable ammo on that last bastard who wont die or give up. In real life it just wouldn't happen that way.

[JasonC]

I think that beyond moaning about it to the world at large, perhaps we should get a group of like-minded CM players together and play a series or some sort of tournament using all "low" quality forces. With "green" the more experienced setting, and plenty of "conscripts" around too, and no fanaticism.

I am sure at the least some funny anecdotes would come out of it, and we might find the fighting more realistic. It would be a change from the "all veterans, all the time" QBs, at any rate.

Any takers? If there are enough people who agree that "play green troops" is the secret to realism in CM - which I am partial to myself - then we should be able to put something together and show it.

[Sgt. Beavis]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

I certainly agree with you but I also realize that if BTS programmed it this way it wouldn't be as much fun. I mean it is a game and while we want it to be as realistic as possible and it is damn good, there's a line between making it completely real and boring. My 2 cents for what it's worth.

This is also true, I agree. But I think that in this narrow aspect, the simulation has swung to far into "fun" and not enough of "realistic." I think it needs to move a bit more towards realistic, in that regular troops will have morale failures faster and more often. Just my feeling and opinion; in a lot of games a squad will be down to 3 or 4 guys, and they're still firing away. For veteran, crack, or elite troops, that is understandable, but for regulars, it should be rare.

I think if this is implemented people will just have to be a bit more cautious with their guys, while using regs, or below

[Sgt. Beavis]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I think that beyond moaning about it to the world at large, perhaps we should get a group of like-minded CM players together and play a series or some sort of tournament using all "low" quality forces. With "green" the more experienced setting, and plenty of "conscripts" around too, and no fanaticism.

I am sure at the least some funny anecdotes would come out of it, and we might find the fighting more realistic. It would be a change from the "all veterans, all the time" QBs, at any rate.

Any takers? If there are enough people who agree that "play green troops" is the secret to realism in CM - which I am partial to myself - then we should be able to put something together and show it.

I'll play a game with you using greens or conscripts. I think that using them is much more realistic.

However, I still would be happier if the regs had their "fight and die" mentality toned down just a bit. And I would also like being able to kill the last guy in a HQ or MG team without having to expend 10,000 rounds of ammo

[lassner.1]

Gentlemen:

It is far from clear that U.S. troops became ineffective at 40-50% casualties. See the excellent work on this matter (including a thorough discussion of the different types of unit cohesion) by Robert Sterling Rush, "Hell in Hürtgen Forest: The Ordeal and Triumph of an American Infantry Regiment." (Kansas Univ Press, 2001).

[Andrew H.]

Stop playing with those gamey regular troops!

Green troops really do show CM at its best, and, in most cases, greatly reward the use of historical tactics. It's also surprising how often their low morale helps the player - a green squad that blunders into an ambush will often escape with only one casualty because they quickly run away. More experience troops will often end up completely shattered as they bravely hold their position against overwhelming odds. (Quasi bravely; unless crack or elite, they are usually suppressed, so it's not even like they take a lot of the enemy with them).

If it weren't for the spotting penalties and order delay, green troops would make the best scouts based on their behavior under fire.

I like the green tournament idea a lot, although real life stuff means I probably can't participate, at least not for the next month.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis:

And good luck trying to kill that last bastard.

I have begun to suspect (though I don't absolutely know if it is true or not) that the reason this happens so often (yes, I and about a million other people have noticed it too) is because that for a given volume of incoming fire, divided by a given amount of cover, the engine calculates that a certain percentage of troops will become casualties. If that percentage amounts to less than one trooper, there are no casualties. Or something very like that.

If that is the case, I'd say it is a design decision that needs revisiting.

Edited to add: I also agree that units stay and fight much longer than they were likely to in real life. If a unit took 20-25% casualties in a firefight as short as the usual CM engagement, they were usually kept too busy caring for their wounded and just generally trying to stay out of the way of high-speed metal objects to do much in the way of effective fighting.

Michael

[ May 17, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[JasonC]

To Sgt. Beavis - email about a game on the way...

[Bruce Robert]

I have had similar experiences with the game, and the fight to the death of the last man gets old. I also think the global morale is too strong. How about a "fear of disaster" check when overall numbers start dropping?

A "GREEN TROOPS" only tourny is a great idea.

[chrisl]

I also agree with the idea of playing green troops. I've been doing this for a while now in pick your own scenarios, and once you get used to it it's a lot of fun. In a dyo with a third party doing the troop purchases I'll pay to upgrade the leaders to regular and vet, as well as a few sharpshooters to vet. Sometimes the sharpshooters are scouts, sometimes they're just sharpshooters. Green troops in C&C can be pretty effective. Green troops out of C&C might as well be eliminated once they've been shot at.

[Tarquelne]

Not quite on topic, but...

I just played a game with almost 2 compaines of Green Volksgrd. vrs. 2 platoons of Crack US riflemen. (Plus some support units and a vehicle or two for each side.)

A very fun game.

There was one squad of Volksgrd. in the back of a heavy building. For about 5 min. (game time) they kept getting orders to go to the front of the building. They'd do so, see the 1 US squad about 100m away in the open, and turn around and hide in the back of the building again. Just because they're Green doesn't mean they're not bloody stubborn.

I thought the Volksgrd. were doing really well untill I realized that the "Eliminated" US platoon was actually an eliminated sharpshooter and 2 bazooka teams. Doh! The other platoon - the supposidly dead one - turned out to be _behind_ me. Just because they're not Conscript Volkstrum doesn't mean they have 20/20 vision...

I think the highest delay time I saw was 184 seconds for one out of command group of slackers.

It was interesting seeing the "gamey" SMGs in the hands of Green troops - didn't seem unbalanced at all.

A Crack M8 Greyhound knocked out a Green Hetzer after the Hetzer popped out of concelment about 300m behind the Greyhound. When the Hetzer came around the building it was hiding behind it was about 15 degrees off of pointing right at the M8. Over the next 20 seconds or so the M8 got off 3 shots, the third hitting the H. in the barely exposed side and knocking it out. In the meanwhile the Hetzer did _nothing._ I know it saw the M8, and was targetting it.... I guess they figured that was enough for now. Next turn they'd see about moving and fireing. The crew didn't even bail after the vehicle was hit. I bet they were still in there, alive and unhurt, but just too lazy to move.

In spite of stuff like that it really was more fun than frustrating to play the Greenies.

[Ligur]

What about the feared Ostfront? From what I've read it appears that in the Ostfront it wasn't an uncommon occurance for units to receive absolutely stupifying casualties (attacking Engineer battallion taking 70% casualties in one attack in Stalingrad) with whole regiments vanishing in the course of a day. Plus I keep hearing again and again how stubborn and fanatical the Russian defence became in the Great Patriotic War, men fighting to the last in isolated pockets. Would the regular troop, if as stubborn as it is now, represent "realism" better in CMBB?

Also keep in mind that the CMBO battle is completely isolated from the big picture. We can't tell what the general morale or status of the local Army is or is the mission to clearly fight to the last to save a retreating division or something... Could these things, if accounted for, make a difference?

[Londoner]

good point ligur but IMO the eastern front was quite different concerning this question. Arguably, hatred of the enemy and fear of capture made both sides less likely to surrender or retreat, even in the face of horrendous casualties.

[ May 18, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Londoner ]