All or nothing - Large scenerios, **Spoilers**

[Phoenix]

Well I have never been frustrated by this game in all the times I've played the demo (for months) or the full version so far.

Till now. Great idea for a scenerio, but in my book it's almost unplayable. Map too big, too many units, and FORGET about trying to move armor and vehicles down the roads in any kind of reasonable manner. This is SO @#$## frustrating. I lost so many vehicles to bogging in because they vered off road, or I had them try to go around something. Ridiculous. (not that they sink in mud)

I also was ALWAYS loosing track of where units were. Reinforcements that came in were useless in the middle of the game as there as I became so frustrated by the impossibility of moving units that I gave up trying to get them anywhere.

Go ahead, tell me that's what it was really like. Fine. But I quit this scenerio out of frustration of the game, not the bad guys beating on me.

Does anyone else have a HELL of a time trying to keep units together in maps like this? I ended up with guys all over the bloody place.

ARRRRGHH. I really wanted to play this map but it's just to annoying.

Cheers to the author of it, but man, it's just too much for this game system to handle I think.

Ok, now all you experts can tell me how you won the game in like 20 turns with no losses.

[MadDog0606]

Your right. It's a beautiful map. But there's just to many units to handle when playing the British. I did manage to keep all the tanks on the road up to the stone bridge. I just called it quits on turn 35.

I realized that scenarios greater then 40 turns (and more then two companys worth of units for the side I'm playing) is just not my cup of tea.

I am very lucky in that there are not many huge scenarios. When I get a better handle on CM I'll more then likely play the real big ones. But until then my plate is full.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Phoenix Ive played this one probably about 20 times in total, and about half of those PBEM's and personally didnt have the troubles you describle (though I enjoy larger battle personally). I guess I have played CM a lot more though, and am used the way is plays more, especially the way you should look after vehicles in muddy terrain.

I dont think its too much for CM to handle though *if* you have a system with higher specs able to run it smoothly, though it is probably getting near its upper limits. I would actually like to have made this one an op after I finished the map, I think it would have made it more managable. Hopefully the ability to swap maps between ops and battle will be around in the future

Anyways, each to their own

[Guest KwazyDog]

Mad Dog, Ill agree with you there. It was many many weeks before I was comfortable player larger scenarios.

You do get used to CM and I think you guys will find it easier to play the larger scenarios. To be honest I find playing all or nothing as the allied not a problem, but then again I have been playing CM for well over 8 months now, so I guess I should

[Phoenix]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

You do get used to CM and I think you guys will find it easier to play the larger scenarios. To be honest I find playing all or nothing as the allied not a problem, but then again I have been playing CM for well over 8 months now, so I guess I should <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've been playing the full game or the demos for 8 months? I've played the demo since it came out. Over, and over again. I have played a BUNCH of the random games and enjoyed them all as well as a couple of other scenerios.

I guess I just don't enjoy trying to spread myself so thinly on these huge ones. Small, and medium is more my style.

I tried playing this one as the Germans but the AI has no chance as the Brits. It immediatly rand the tanks into the mud and in 10 turns all were bogged down. Even the computer can't figure out how to stay on the roads!!!!

[Guest KwazyDog]

The full game Phoenix, actually I made the scenario in question Ive been beta testing since about September last year, and actually started working on building the 3D models and texture in CM about April last year, so I know the system pretty well.

I agree the AI does have problems with the muddy terrain, something Im sure will be looked at in the future.

Anyways, each to their own, I enjoy scenarios of all sizes myself, though really enjoy the larger ones where you really have a fight on your hands. I think this particular battle though would have been better server as an operation over a battle. Maybe something I should consider doing in the future, hehe.

[Derfel]

Couldn't resist putting my oar in...

Kwaz, "All..." is IMHO a frigging great scenario, I sweated, swore and wrestled the damn thing over a period of ten days (not continously Everytime I thought I had a grip on the krauts some new horror showed up and turned that part of the field into a sort of miniature Jonestown (total death and destruction)... I have rarely felt greater satisfaction in any wargame than when I finally led my battered survivors into the town and railway station... (on turn 68...)

I'm not dissing those who found it too much to handle or too frustrating, tastes do differ and mine happened to coincide with your scenario.

One thing only really annoyed me; tanks that bogged down on the railway bank! Now, really... (not your doing of course, but a minor correction might be needed in a future patch.)

Anyway, I'd just thought I'd balance the scale a little.

-Derfel

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The only problem for a cobra attacking small furry animals is that occasionally one of them will turn out to be a mongoose...

[This message has been edited by Derfel (edited 07-20-2000).]

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Derfel:

Couldn't resist putting my oar in...

Everytime I thought I had a grip on the krauts some new horror showed up and turned that part of the field into a sort of miniature Jonestown (total death and destruction)... I have rarely felt greater satisfaction in any wargame than when I finally led my battered survivors into the town and railway station... (on turn 68...)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, this is a very tense scenario, and despite being aware of where in general to expect surprises (should be rather obvious from reading the briefing and examining the terrain -in retrospect...), I kept having the impression tha after the next hurdle it would be clear sailing, only to be met by an apparently insurmountable obstacle . A very well-designed scenario full of tension.

The only negative part, as I have posted elsewhere has little to do with the design and more with the game mechanics, the tedious micro-management of moving many vehicles on roads.

Good work

Henri

[Guest KwazyDog]

Glad you enjoyed it guys I realise its a large one, and thus not everyones cup of tea, but I found it fun to play, especially PBEM where you dont feel the need to do turns too fast.

Derfel, I *may* be able to offer you one explination for your immobilised tank on the railway track. Remember that immobilised represents a thrown track on a tank and not just bogged down. Railway tracks, especially in the wet, can cause a tank to pop a track if unlucky

Anyways, just a thought, Im not positive that is what happened, hehe.

Henri, I agree about the micromanagent too. The good news is that I imagine this scenario is probably a worst case situation for have to micromanage your units, so if you can get through this one, you should be able to get through any

Thanks Guys

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Derfel, I *may* be able to offer you one explination for your immobilised tank on the railway track. Remember that immobilised represents a thrown track on a tank and not just bogged down. Railway tracks, especially in the wet, can cause a tank to pop a track if unlucky <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a matter of fact, I had two tanks throw a track on the railroad in this scenario , but I expected that so I didn`t think it was a big deal, especially since I felt I could afford the tank losses . I lost a LOT more through bogging down , I think I had eight or ten immobilized tanks at the end

Henri

[This message has been edited by Henri (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Juju]

Well, I'm on turn 19 only, and everything goes just spiffy. So far only one Immob.(artillery).

Convoy-driving is really not that difficult, just don't hurry. Give 'em some time and use both sides of the road instead of just the middle.

Many units don't really bother me. I usually take a lengthy break from a large or huge scenario or operation after about 6 or 7 turns, and continue fresh later. Works for me.

BTW, IIRC driving on railroads with AFV's is asking for track-throwing problems!

[Ricky]

Guys, I didn't like the large scenarios until I witnessed CM being played under a Athlon 1GHZ system with a GeForce2. Large scenarios such as Hill 140, Clash or Eagles, Sherbrooke Fusielers etc, were a absolute blast to play cause things ran at full speed with absolutely no slowdown. Tracers were a completely different thing when they whizzed by your troops at full speed with max framerates. Everything was smooth as glass, from the moving vehicles, to the infantry walking to the explosions. It was like a completely different game. I changed from avoiding large scenarios, to making them my favorite. I can't stress how much a superfast computer makes to the overall enjoyment of CM. Obviously not everyone can afford a 1GHZ system, but it's on my "wishlist" for Christmas. The system I played CM on belonged to my friend. I promise you will absolutely love large scenarios if you have a machine fast enough to run them at full speed with superfast framerates. There's nothing like hitting the GO button and the progress bar flashes by so fast that you almost miss it. wow.

[GI Tom]

SERIOUS SPOILER...AAR TO FOLLOW FOR ALL OR NOTHING SCENERIO!!

SPOILER WARNING....

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STOP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT THIS SCENERIO TO BE SPOILED..I'M NOT KIDDING....

KwazyDog....FABULOUS Scenerio!! Thank you very much.

I had a ball with this one. Took me almost 8 days to play, but it was great.

This is a winnable scenerio. I had the AI surrender to me in turn 62. Here is AAR.

I was British.

British:

186 casualties (48 KIA)

3 Mortars Destroyed

18 vehicles KO'd

454 men OK

Score: 62

German:

277 casualties (61 KIA)

83 Captured

2 Mortars Destroyed

6 Guns Destroyed

2 Pillboxes KO'd

16 Vehicles KO'd

Men OK: 32

Score: 38

Axis Surrender

Allied Minor Victory

Phew..they surrendered and I barely still won. I found that this scenerio is a logistic nightmare. However, if you take your time and stick to the main roads up until you don't have to, you can get by. I didn't lose one tank to thrown track or immoblization. That's amazing compared to some of the other AAR's I've seen. Because you have to go on the tracks at some point.

I was never so intense on a game so far as this one. Someone said it best, if you can get through this one, the rest have to be a walk in the park. I'll tell you, the satisfaction I had at the end seeing that I'd won was unreal. A real achievement. I made my wife look at the AAR on the screen. Out of kindness, she acted interested.

Anyway, the way I won was to stick to the main (dirt) road by the track and not the track, I didn't cross over to the track until the last minute. Infantry clearing the 3 major ridges in the game is key IMHO. You have to be patient and keep your tanks back and let your infantry do the nasty discoveries for you. (You have plenty to do the trick) Then you can roll on the Germs with your heavy stuff. I was lucky and my engineer platoon arrived on turn 34. That was plenty of time to clear the mines and put 3 platoons and 4 tanks across the secondary wooden bridge by turn 55.

Again, great scenerio..thanks!

GI Tom

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To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich.

[aka_tom_w]

If you like HUGE maps and BIG scenarios

PLEASE let me send you this one.

I have just finsihed it.

(see below)

I just took a Look at ALL or Nothing and was envious of the way the Railway tracks run over the roads. I have not figured out how to do this yet.

Any hints?

Kwazy Dog:

I'd be honoured if you would check out my HUGE sceanrio and tell me what you think.

-tom w

Title: Balanced Bridges at Dawn

Type: Fictional Allied Advance to Secure Bridges (like its just a fun scenario, not real)

Date: Dawn of Octoberfest 15, 1944 (its a joke

Location: Wheat Fields surrounding Large European Walled City of Centerville

Weather: Clear

Ground Conditions: Damp

Length: 75 turns (it will be long over before 75 minutes don't worry)

Points: Each side has over 5000 points worth of units.

Best Played as Allies, (No German AI option)

This a big scenario on a Huge Map (3.1 km by 1.6 km). Maybe it should be an operation but I wanted to have 2 little opening battles happening at the same time to begin with.

A large Walled City sits in the center of the map flanked by two rivers that run north and south.

Two very large wheat fields lie on either side of the rivers and offer very poor cover. British Paratroops have been dropped on the fatherest western bridge and are cut off while German forces hold the eastern bridge and face the oncoming Allied advance. A German force enters from the West in relief, and an American force enters from the East to link up with the cut off British Paratroops holding the western bridge. Both the East and West rivers have important strategic bridges over them. Germans attempt to prevent Allies from taking the two important bridges and prevent them from exiting units off the West edge of the map.

The scenario was designed to give both players similiar weapons and terrain advantages and tactical challenges. Both players will have plenty of armor and infantry and even paratroops available to get the job done. I'm looking for further advice as to how to balance this scenario even better so both players have a VERY equal chance to gain a victory.

Scenario Designed By Tom Wilcox tcw@mac.com

July 28/00

P.S. This scenario has not really been tested and may be simply too large and cpu intensive for all but the biggest and fastest computer systems with top of the line Video graphics cards and plenty of V-Ram and cpu's faster than 300 mHz.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Glad you enjoyed it GI Hehe, I think this battle had a love hate thing with people.

Tom, send me your scenario, Id lvoe to check it out You will find the bridge with a road under it terrain editor 'labeled tall bridge w/rod'. That should be what you are after. On my system in 1024x768 it is on the right had side of the tiles about about the 4th row down.

Dan

[Smoker]

I enjoyed this one very much. It is quite tedious managing and moving all the units (Now where's that arty spotter?, but it's great fun overall. I think it would be a great PBEM battle. BTW, the scenario runs well on a PIII 733 with Geforce SDR.

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Smoker out.