curious about motorized infantry tactics

[Phantom Captain]

hello all, this is my first post. got the game a few weeks ago, can't believe i hadn't heard about it sooner. i'm very into computer wargaming and think i keep up but i guess this one blew over me. anyhow, this is by far and away the most incredible war game by miles. so, onto my topic. how do you employ motorized infantry, or shall i rephrase and say what is the most effective way of using them. my tactics are sound pretty much with regular infantry but i always feel i should be maybe doing something special with them. i mean there doesn't seem to be a point really when the first thing i do is disembark them to avoid losing big chunks of them in case of a vehicle hit, and then pretty much fan out and use them as normal infantry. i like to keep a platoon in reserve mounted so i can get them to a hot spot right quick if needed but sometimes this too also leads to many and quick casualties from a vehicle hit. just curious and any info will be appreciated. also curious too on the german and or american doctrine on motorized infantry. absolutely love this game and can't get enough! thanks in advance.

[Warmaker]

If I don't have an all Pz.Grenadier infantry unit, then what PzG units I have I'll keep in reserve. Keeping them in or near their half-tracks is a good idea but I prefer to keep them nearby dismounted (never know about those triggerhappy Allied pilots).

More often, I use them to anchor my defenses or to hold vital VL.

On the offense, if you only have few of them, hold them back for those last tough defenses unless you like to use them initially on an important assault.

With so much firepower available to them your options are quite open. Same goes for the Fallschirmjager. Keep the SMG platoons in the sandbox or toychest though.

[YankeeDog]

Lord Dragon, welcome from another newbie. I'm about 2 months into the game at this point so I'm no grog, but maybe I can give some helpful responses. . .

You already mentioned one of the best uses for motorized infantry in your post - Having a mobile reserve that can be shuttled off to any part of the battlefield quickly is indeed useful. In theory, by the time you deploy this reserve, you should have a pretty good idea of where enemy ATGs and AFVs are, so you should be able to keep the risk to the vehicles limited - usually. A good opponent will keep a light ATG or AC hidden and ruin your well planned endgame. A great tactic, though - not only does your infantry get there faster, it also isn't as tired. The usefulness of this tactic is best demonstrated on a large map where you need to make a long advance - like the 'Fire & Maneuver' training scenario included on the CD.

Another related tactic is using the HTs to shuttle around HMGs, on-board mortars, and IAT teams - these teams are relatively slow moving and/or tire easily, so giving them some wheels can really help them keep up with the advance. I find this especially useful with IAT teams - their limited range means that they have to get close to enemy AFVs to be effective, so being able to move them around quickly to set up ambushes along anticipated lines of advance is useful.

I almost never expose a HT loaded with infantry to enemy fire other than small arms unless I have a REALLY good reason for doing it - as you mentioned, if the HT gets taken out, there's a good chance the squad will take casualties from the knock out round, and then they're usually stuck in the open under fire. Another note - watch out for mortar or artillery fire on open-topped HTs - they're very vulnerable to it.

I don't think that the HTs are totally worthless once they've disembarked their troops, though. You just have to be even more careful than you would with a more rugged AFV. Especially in the endgame, when most of the heavy AFVs and ATGs are gone or at least exposed so you can avoid them, an extra mobile MG can come in very handy. Just make sure to keep them out of shreck/zook range, and their light armor will usually keep them pretty safe.

In my experience, Axis HTs are slightly more vulnerable that the allied ones. This has nothing to do with the HTs themselves, but rather the existence of the allied .50cal MG - does quite a job on thin-skinned HTs, especially from the side or rear!

There is one more tactic that the empty HTs can be used for, but I'm a little reluctant to mention it. . . HTs can be used to 'scout' ahead of more valuable assets (heavier AFVs) to draw fire and locate enemy AT assets. Many people consider this 'gamey'. To me, that all a matter of how this tactic is used. Popping a HT briefly over a ridge to see what it can see and then popping it back down I don't feel is very gamey. Driving a column of three of them at top speed down a road to distract and draw fire while your tanks crest a ridge to pop any ATGs that show themselves is probably very unrealistic IRL terms. In any event, HTs are faster than heavier AFVs, and losing one is less of a catastrophe than an expensive tank, so sometimes it seems appropriate to take a little more risk with them.

My knowledge about actual military doctrine is a little limited, so this part of your query is probably better answered by others, but I have read some about the German Panzergrenadier units - basically, the whole idea was to have infantry that could keep up with the tanks, to counter threats to tanks like IAT, ATGs, etc. so tanks could better exploit breakthroughs. This is, IMHO, well demonstrated in CM - I find a tank completely without infantry support to be almost blind - sooner or later it stumbles onto a zook or something. . .

Cheers,

YankeeDog

[Warmaker]

To me, zipping infantry around in HTs is a good idea as long as you wisely deploy them. There are two absolutely worst ways that you can do in deploying these mounted units:

1. Advancing ahead of your forces without proper reconaissance. Unseen threats can wipe out about 300pts worth of infantry and HTs.

2. Dropping your PzGrenadiers off in front of a firefight, jumping out, guns blazing like it was some damn comic book. Trust me on this, the results won't be pretty. Not that I've ever done it. It's just what a friend told me

As an avid Axis player, I absolutely love the German HTs despite the threat of those .50 Cals. They come in many different flavors to tailor to your infantry's needs when the cost of purchasing and employing a full fledged tank for infantry support is out of the question. The 75mm equipped SPW is relatively cheap and has just enough ammo to support its infantry for a short duration. Those spare points could be used to get that Panther G Late you're trying to squeeze into your points budget.

If you're going to zip your Pz.Gren. around in HTs try to drop them off behind cover like forests and buildings, anything to disrupt the LOS from the enemy. The HTs will get them there quickly and efficiently. When deemed "safe" enough, the HTs can then emerge to support the infantry with their MGs or what not.

[Redwolf]

The problem here is that the Halftracks are expensive. If you loose them, the price cuts off your victory level and if you let the crew down, even more.

If you buy the armoured Panzergrenadier platoon, you get the big SPW (regular) for 49 points. It transports a squad worth 32 points. If you add a Panzerschreck to fill the HQ HT, you spend 333 points, only 114 of them in fighting infantry, 196 in Halftracks. It is obvious that the price/combat-value relatioship is a bit off.

The SPWs have too few MG ammo to have much of an effect and in any case the platoon has 4 HT MGs, while the squads alone already carry 6. Keeping the Halftracks around to support the Grenadier is usually not worth the risk. They don't have much firepower, but one .50cal somewhere in the woods and you loose major victory points. Obviously, your single Panzergrenadier Platoon has no chance against 2.5 American or 3 British platoons your opponent can buy for the same points.

While I most certainly value a mobile reserve, I think that such a reserve is too expensive. It draws too many points from the main force.

Having said this, I like APCs to carry heavy weapons around. A Stuart Kangaroo with a single flamethrower team and a bit of rifle support can be a very nasty surprise for the opponent and/or you can use it late in the game to chase infantry off the flags. Such a combo is cheap enough to hide throughout the game until you are sure you spottet all AFV and every enemy gun fired already.

Also a different turn are the allied halftracks with the .50cal MG and 250 ammo. Very useful and cost-effective vehicles if you already have enough anti-armour stuff elsewhere. I won't buy four of them to motorise a whole platoon, though.

[Chad Harrison]

i must also say that those halftracks are a little to expensive for me. they have their uses, but on a smaller battle (less than 2000 points) they tend to be a little to expensive when those points can be spend on other, more effective vehicles (psw series for the germans, greyhound for amis). personally, in a QB when i see an enemy halftrack i get all excited. its easy bait and all the less points spent on something that can take out my tanks/armored cars.

however, when you do have them, they make for a great fast reserve. i would never scout with them, again they are too costly for that. they are the "im in a pinch and need someone here fast". never ever take them into an area where theres any tank or .50cal around. they are big targets and seem to be magnets for everything. after you dismount your troops and if they are still around, use them as an armored MG platform.

welcome to CM and best of luck in your games!

[Silvio Manuel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

There are two absolutely worst ways that you can do in deploying these mounted units:

2. Dropping your PzGrenadiers off in front of a firefight, jumping out, guns blazing like it was some damn comic book. Trust me on this, the results won't be pretty. Not that I've ever done it. It's just what a friend told me

As an avid Axis player, I absolutely love the German HTs despite the threat of those .50 Cals. The 75mm equipped SPW is relatively cheap and has just enough ammo to support its infantry for a short duration.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A) I've tried the 'comic book' dismount & dominate approach when I first got the game...not pretty at all. M'boys routed and ran in no time. Part of the problem is that you can't dismount into woods/tall pines, and scattered trees aren't good enough cover in a bad firefight.

I like German HT's, but sorely miss a .50cal, or even a 2nd MG, and IIRC, none of them have flexible MG's, just "Forward" mounted. I do love that 251/9 75mm though. If you can get close, it can bag some AFVs too.

Conversely, the allied HT/Vehicles have .50cal, but only up to 37mm in terms of HE-carrying RV's.

S.M.

[Warmaker]

Yep, .50 cal envy runs rampant. Not to mention the plethora of ammunition the Allies get. 250 MG rounds? Holy sh!t!

Back onto using the Panzergrenadiers. Another old way is to have them mounted and following behind the advancing panzers. Not right behind them where ATGs can pick them off instead of the panzers though, just somewhere out of sight but close enough to the rear fo the advancing elements. Encounter any strongpoints along the way to the objective? Bypass or flank their positions with the armor and deploy the Pz.Grenadiers to attack. Panzers then take a support role to the infantry. When successful, panzers lead the advance and infantry follow for a more "dashing" attack.

Another way is for the panzers to press on for the real objective if resistance is enountered. Let the following up infantry take care of them. Preferrably, let the foot-powered infantry do this while you keep your mounted Pz.Grenadiers just behind of the panzers for the real objective.

[tar]

The other more global answer to this is that motorized tactics are somewhat outside the scope of Combat Mission. The real benefit of motorized and mechanized infantry formations was that they could keep up with the strategic or operational movement of the armored formations.

To fight at the tactical level that is depicted in Combat Mission, the infantry would pretty much always have to dismount. From this point of view, there isn't a large amount of distinction between using trucks or halftracks, except that the latter provided a bit more protection against the odd sniper or infantry picket line while moving before the deployment or dismount point.