Hakko Ichiu Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 I've been playing scenario [CENSORED] in which the Luftwaffe is active and the Sovs have 2xM17s. A couple of observations: 1) Jabos are devastatingly effective. I don't recall seeing anything in CMBO to compare with the results that I saw on the Ostfront. I had 14 AFVs destroyed, 4 to a Pakfront and 10(!) to the Jabos. 2) Despite using my M17s in the AA role, i.e. parked out of LOS to the Germans' nasty 20mm Flak. They very rarely fired on the Jabo -- which made at least half a dozen passes over my poor T-34s. From an initial ammo loadout of 200, by the end of the 30 turn scenario it was down to about 180. So, what are the LOS rules for AA targetting? Does a gun have to have LOS to the "shadow" of the Jabo? i.e., treating it as if it were a ground target? Or do trees, but not other terrain effects block AA LOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 I just played the same scenarios as well, there seems to be no targeting line from the M17 to the plane as if they don't hear them coming and they only fire when the plane is almost directly above them. Since the plane is moving across the screen really fast the AA gun will only managed to get off a couple of shot. It is the other way round for the plane since the plane have a direct target line to the tanks way way ahead, they will start strafing when their shadow is about halfway the map distance from the tanks and then drop the bombs about 1/4 way. I hope BFC can explain the target acquisitioning for AA gun clearly, I can see the planes coming in but the AA gun just ignore them until its too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 I noticed the same thing about the M17 in a little test scenario I put together. It never got a red targeting line to the attacking plane, and it wouldn't rotate it's turret to face it. It occasionally put out a shot or two (at a direction and angle totally off from the turret facing), but not the amount of lead that I would have expected to see... Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 Just a bump to keep this one from getting lost in the Sea of w00t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: Just a bump to keep this one from getting lost in the Sea of w00t.You've obviously got the AA blues, man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Anyone else think the M17 targeting is off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted September 26, 2002 Author Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: Just a bump to keep this one from getting lost in the Sea of w00t.You've obviously got the AA blues, man...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 the artillery spotter was nice though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: Just a bump to keep this one from getting lost in the Sea of w00t.You've obviously got the AA blues, man...</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted September 26, 2002 Author Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Oh, is that one by me then? Can't remember if I put M17s in any scenarios.I think it's by you. [Hint]It has a dry stream bed as the Sov. setup zone.[/Hint] I'm on my fourth try at it, and haven't managed better than a draw so far because the verfluchte Jabos keep killing all my brave tankers and giving my infantry a case of brown trouser syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: Oh, is that one by me then? Can't remember if I put M17s in any scenarios.I think it's by you. [Hint]It has a dry stream bed as the Sov. setup zone.[/Hint] I'm on my fourth try at it, and haven't managed better than a draw so far because the verfluchte Jabos keep killing all my brave tankers and giving my infantry a case of brown trouser syndrome.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Anyone do any further testing on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted September 26, 2002 Author Share Posted September 26, 2002 *Bump* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 The set up: The 20mm Quad first spotted the Sov aircraft some 1600m out, tracked it for a few seconds (without firing), and then switched to an infantry target some 350m to it's front (without firing), and then switched back to the R-10 when it was 600m out. Just as it rotated to face a new target, the quad 20 would acquire a different target and rotate back. Note the range! Those Bolshe's like to come in low, don't they? The five grey objects are bombs, by the way. Now, note the Sd Kfz 7/1, at the exact same moment. It's in scattered trees on top of a hill --- LOS all the way to the edge of the map the R-10 entered through. What does it appear to be doing? Coffee break? Nap time? Bathroom break? Dunno, but it never targeted the Sov aircraft at any point, and those five dots right overhead bracketed it quite nicely. The Quad 20 continued to track the R-10 as it swung up and away --- finally firing off one burst at around 950m. Game was using EFOW, and I have a strong suspicion that the inability of AA units to focus has something to do with it. [ September 26, 2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: von Lucke ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 AA seems reluctant to waste ammo on planes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 And wasting ammo on planes is EXACTLY what you do want to do when one appears. I don't mean waste it actually, but I do mean fire a fair bit of it downrange at the jabo if you can get a bead on it. They would be quite hard to hit unless they flew directly at you or away from you and I wouldn't try to be too economical with it prior to it dropping its bombs on me. What was army doctrine on this for the Germans do you know, Andreas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Norman Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I noticed (while trying to target a land unit) that the M17 had a very short range like 250m or less. Which I thought was odd. Might make them rather lousy AAA platforms or be inaccurate. Not enough of a grog to know. I also wonder if M17s must be unbuttoned in order to fire the AA mg's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Naming no stations, sorry, scenarios I got a major victory on that one. The variable turn limit was on my side though. The M17 (I lost the other to 20mm fire) only fired once, when a jabo went straight over it. I'm guessing a range issue here. Still, the Jerry jabos still KO'd 2 T34s and immobilised another 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Originally posted by flamingknives: Naming no stations, sorry, scenarios I got a major victory on that one. The variable turn limit was on my side though. The M17 (I lost the other to 20mm fire) only fired once, when a jabo went straight over it. I'm guessing a range issue here. Still, the Jerry jabos still KO'd 2 T34s and immobilised another 2So, what was your strategy in this one? It does help when the turn limit goes your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I was thinking that maybe just hide the tank and use them as long range gunner while the infantry advance to the flag cause as soon as tank got in the open it will be wasted. Oh and dont bunch them together, the Jabo usually take 1 tank per turn and if you are lucky the death clock will be on your side (I had a jabo strafing a knocked out tank for 5 turns) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I have asked Charles to look over his AAA targeting stuff just to be on the safe side. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Originally posted by Goanna: And wasting ammo on planes is EXACTLY what you do want to do when one appears. I don't mean waste it actually, but I do mean fire a fair bit of it downrange at the jabo if you can get a bead on it. They would be quite hard to hit unless they flew directly at you or away from you and I wouldn't try to be too economical with it prior to it dropping its bombs on me. What was army doctrine on this for the Germans do you know, Andreas?The honest answer is 'I don't know'. The other answer, and take it for what it is worth, is that I would infer a regulation of throwing lead at the target. Two reasons for this: 1) Flak 38, compared to Flak 30, had an increased practical ROF of 220 rd/min, compared to 120 rd/min for the older model. 2) The quad Flak 20mm could be fired with all four barrels, but in standard fire only fired two barrels. That would indicate to me that there was a value in throwing it out if push comes to shove. As I said, inference - unfortunately I am not sure where I could find the correct information. [ September 27, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Another thing that I just came across in v. Senger und Etterlin 'Die deutschen Geschuetze'. Towards the end of the war, the German 2cm was deemed inadequate for trying to get rid of Jabos. 3,7cm was the way to go - to quote 'single round hits were not sufficient'. I guess the same would apply to .50 mg rounds, only worse, since they did not have shrapnell effects. There are also issues about how fast the turret turns, and what kind of sighting mechanism you have (German light AA had a stereoscopic range-finder per gun as part of TO&E). The German counterpart to the M17, the SPW 251/21 should be sh*te in the game against air targets, since it lacked any sort of AA targetting mechanism of that quality. Just a few things to ponder - I would expect the M17 to be by far less effective than a light gun throwing out HE/Incendiary rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 all I wanted is for AA gun to at least disrupt the plane so they are not so accurate at shooting ground target. If im not mistaken a plane should be on a fix path to accurately do a strafing or a bombing run. I hope seeing multiple incoming tracer fire would make the pilot a bit uneasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 Well, the first test I ran with 5 M17s after this thread came up, they shot down a Ju87, and the second one then never appeared. Was effective enough for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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