tank question

[easytarget]

so, w/o using much imagination i'm basically learning the basics of cmbo by playing the screnarios that came with it in the order they come up in the list

so, i've played a walk in paris as the allies and managed a minor victory - which for me was actually rather satisfying because it was rather difficult for me to implement tank tactics against the panthers that didn't lead to a lot of dead shermans - it was immensely satisfying, in fact probably the most fun i've had playing this game so far, flanking a panther with two shermans working for a flank shot that actually worked - much fun

just for fun, and to enjoy armor superiority from the german side i played it again and of course found it much easier to win

so, what's my question you ask?

well, i had a panther sitting on one of the streets basically acting like a rook in chess covering everything that came down the street - killing shermans left and right - the problem i encountered was keeping the panther from targeting infantry and staying focused on shermans - whenever i gave orders to hunt forward in a path that would reveal a sherman behind some trees i often found the panther wasting good shot opportunities because on the way to where i wanted it to go it ran across ground troops it decided to pound with it's big gun rather than shooting at shermans

in fact, what prompts this question is the irritating loss of a panther (well, it's main gun was taken out anyway) due to this very failure - a sherman flanked it and got a good shot on it mainly because instead of following my instructions to hunt forward it took it upon itself to turn turret across the street and shoot at some infantry - meanwhile the sherman flanked it and got the shot mainly because it didn't follow my orders

i'll be the first to admit that a lot of times the AI makes great decisions and accomplishes kills that i would of missed - the downside though at times is this indepedent initiative is wasted on misadventures against ground troops that led to missed opportunites to take out and in this case avoid being taken out by the shermans

[Shades]

This is one of the main gripes of CMBO which they fixed in CMBB. In CMBB you can now create a cover arc to just target armor and vice versa. In CMBO, if you know a armor will coming a certain direction and you know you won't be flanked, ambush markers can help but not a long distances. The real problem is when there are a lot of infantry in view across the map, the turret will often turn in dangerous positions. Try to block the view of the tank from certain angles and if possible, position another tank to cover the blind spots.

[BloodyBucket]

Yep, this one is annoying. Not much to be done about it, beyond the forementioned use of ambush markers. On the flip side, infantry can be used by you to distract those nasty tanks!

[Green Hornet]

EasyTarget,

Shades is right. This is a problem that many CMBO'ers have run into and (like you ) lost some armor because of it.

It doesn't stop at AFVs either. In a recent PBEM game, I had a lone 57mm AT gun camped out in some woods covering a possible enemy approach route. Sure enough, a in few turms here come 2 Panthers and a horde of Halftracks.

My 57mm AT gun doesn't have a chance against a frontal shot on either of the Panthers so I decide to take out as many halftracks as possible before they spot my gun.

Well, my AT gun knocks out the first halftrack, then promptly targets one of the Panthers!!! As I watch my 57mm gun annoy the Panther by bouncing shells off his frontal armor, the Panthers eventually spot me and my gun is history.

It can be a bit annoying but, fortunately doesn't happen all of the time. My justification ( to keep myself from getting too mad at the TacAI ) is that I'm giving my troops orders and they are trying to carry out those orders the best they can. Sometimes, in the heat of battle, they panic or make bad decisions.

[Negrin]

Well,look at it this way.What would you do in real life if you were manning that 57mm AT gun? I bet my last dollar that in the confusion of battle not to mention the fear that the Panther invoked in all that encountered it, you would definately target the damn tank hoping for a "lucky" shot instead of the MG armed half tracks!To target the HT `s and leave the Panther would be sure death for a gun crew......remember these are US GI`s not Hezbollah fanatics,so suicide is for the most part not an option!

I think in this case CMBO may be a few steps ahead of us who attempt to put too much in the way of common sense and logic into warfare.Remember,even the best thought out plans go out the window upon contact with the enemy!

Same for the Panther encountering infantry.Yes,the Panthers assignment in the other case was to cover a road junction.But again,if you were actually the tank commander and saw a infantry squad a block or so away and no Shermans in the immediate area would you not be loading HE rounds into the 75mm gun?I would.Keep in mind, we playing the game have a birds eye view of the battlefield,our troops do not have this luxury !

[easytarget]

negrin,

for the most part i agree with all the above comments - the confusion of war and all that - and the fact that we have a birds eye view

the problem i had with my particular experience was that in real life i don't think a vet panther tank commander would goof off firing at infantry with his main gun while he had not one, not two, but three shermans targetable

that's what a machine gun on a tank is for - fire that at infrantry till the cows come home

whatever you do, don't sit there firing across the street with your main gun at infantry that can't hurt you while ignoring a sherman i've told you to hunt towards that is flanking you at 75m

cause the liklihood of you getting killed by such behavior, even in real life, is high

[Quenaelin]

I have been playing Panzer Elite, it is tank simulator game where you don't have this kind of bird eye view like in CM and definetly I would fire some HE rounds againgst infantry if I don't see anything else in the view, and be damn scared becouse of few shermans just passed my position without getting any good clear shot at them, becouse I was shooting infantry, but war is war and it can be really messy sometimes. But still, I would like to play those western battles with CMBB engine, so I could get those armored vehicles covered.

[Green Hornet]

Negrin,

I somewhat agree with your point. I guess it's tough to tell what would happen IRL in all situations ( and even tougher to code ). I can see an AT gun crew trying to stay concealed and attempting to go after the "low hanging fruit", hoping to knock out as many HT's as possible while staying concealed. After all, my gun was not targeted by the Panther until I bounced about 4 shots off of him. That could possibly have been 4 dead HT's.

But I certainly can also see a tank crew deciding that they need to go after the bigger immediate threat even if it means their chance of success is extremely low. After all, they are an anti-TANK crew.

I guess it all boils down to how the individual G.I.'s would react under the pressures of battle. Each soldier and each crew would probably react slightly different and certainly would not always use the same logic we do while sitting in our comfy chairs...

Anyway, the main point I was trying to convey to EasyTarget was that whenever I encounter a situation in which I don't like or "agree" with what the A.I. is doing, I chalk it up to individual G.I.'s making their own best decision given their circumstances.

[easytarget]

Green Hornet,

Agree on last paragraph. That's why TacAI is interesting to watch - sometimes it really does act human.

At the same time, I don't consider it gamey in the least to attempt to make my tank commanders do what I know is in the best interest of the overall effort (that is after all what commanders in the field do).

And when I tell a vet panther team that they should be targeting the three visible shermans over the infantry they see - that's not only in their best interest, but also their sides best interest - and in real life, i find it hard to believe that would not be a real command given.

But back to my original question, which was what strats do folks employ to make a tank hunt forward in CMBO w/o getting distracted by infantry targets.

Sounds like the best soln is to stand off and pick your targets or arrange by location to make it so they can't see the infantry.

It just so happens on the map I was on, the main flag is at the middle of the map, and if I didn't more closely engage the shermans, they were simply going to control the flag w/o my contesting it, so I had to move one of my panthers in closer.

thx for the replies btw!

[Green Hornet]

Originally posted by easytarget:

At the same time, I don't consider it gamey in the least to attempt to make my tank commanders do what I know is in the best interest of the overall effort (that is after all what commanders in the field do).

I totally agree. That's not gamey at all.

You issue orders to your units because, as acting commander, that's what the game is all about.

Your units may or may not execute these orders exactly as you intended.

When your units do something different than you intended, it can either be because -

1) There are current limitions in the CMBO TacAI.

2) The TacAI may be behaving "correctly" in that the individual soldiers are acting in the best interest of their virtual lives.

There's no question (IMO) that your situation is a limitation of CMBO's AI. As mentioned earlier, this has been addressed in CMBB, and there are a few things you can do to try to prevent this from happening too often.

For me, I tend to find it more fun to yell at my virtual soliders rather than get too frustrated at a limitation in the game.

I only offered my suggestions ( of blaming your virtual soliders) as a way to ease this annoyance and not get too distracted from enjoying the game.

But don't get me wrong, I agree that a veteran tank crew would target and enemy tank in sight before using their big gun on infantry.

Can you tell it's a slow day at work for me...

[ December 03, 2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Green Hornet ]

[easytarget]

yep, pretty slow on my end as well

and honestly, i'm not really terribly frustrated by what happened

i'll just keep in mind next time i'm getting into close qtrs with a tank that has multiple available targets (both infantry and armor)

i'm having a blast - basically a walk in paris was my first battle - played it from both sides - had a great time

now on to the next one (whichever it happens to be that comes up next in the list )

[Negrin]

Ah,the fact that the 3 Shermans were visible targets to the Panther eluded me in my earlier reply.In this light,obviously the Panther would tackle tanks before Infantry provided the Shermans were within range.If the Infantry were equipped with a bazooka or other AT device then here again begs the question.......what would you do in this situation.A US tank hunting team armed with a bazooka could pose just as great a threat to virtually any German armor if they survive long enough to get within range.It is safe to assume then, that the individual tank commander would assess the threats and then prioritze them by immediate threat.......just like in Panzer Elite......another fantastic game!

[Negrin]

Oh yeah,don`t forget about "smokeless" gunpowder.Well the Allies did not posses this in any great quantity so you better believe that as soon as the 57mm opened up the Panther would have zeroed his location mighty quick.One luxury that the "Jerrys" enjoyed from the get go was smokeless powder.Now if say a PAK 40 was lying in wait for Yank tanks utilizing this smokeless propellant(which did smoke,just not as much) and the shear destructive power of the weapon itself.....well....3 dead Shermans!

[kevsharr]

Evidently the computer has the same problem,in a recent battle a marderIII suddenly appeared with a clear shot at the flank of one of my sherman's that I had just given a movement order to at less than a hundred yard's,but instead of making it toast it chose to shot at a 60mm mortar that was closer three times giving a bazooka team time to run up and knock it out.I bet the computer was banging it's virtual keyboard

[Kanonier Reichmann]

One potential solution to your problem easytarget was to actually target the infantry unit that is most in line with the enemy tank(s), when drawing a virtual line from your Panther to the Sherman, but choose to fire the MG. This way, the turret will be oriented in the correct direction when firing at the enemy infantry and once the Sherman starts to pose a threat to the Panther, it should change its target automatically to the enemy tank and fire AP, as originally desired.

This way should ensure that ony MG fire is used against enemy infantry while the main gun is used against the tanks.

Just a thought.

Regards

Jim R.

[easytarget]

kev,

hehe

i guess turn around is fair play hey!

[ December 03, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: easytarget ]

[easytarget]

kan,

i'll keep that in mind when i'm sure similiar situations will no doubt arise - thx for the suggestion

it does make me wonder also what would of happened if i had given it the targeting command you suggest with MG and then gave it next target orders - would those next target orders apply to the MG or the main gun?