Negrin

Actually, I recieved my copy in about a weeks time as well.I live in B.C Canada and the wait is supposed to be about 4-6 weeks! Lucky me!

Dorosh...is your mom posting here again? HAHAHAHAH

Mr.Dorosh..... I owe you an apology sir.The photo that I based my argument on is in fact that of a later model M4 with the re positioned .50. I spent so many hours looking through all the books that could possibly lead me out of the woods on this debate but my search proved fruitless indeed. If I see another Sherman M4 A1/A2,well..... Let me state for the record: I have come to the conclusion,through Mr.Dorosh`s suggestions and persuation as well as shear lack of evidence on my part, that in fact the .50 could not possibly be fired from the cupola by the commander or other on an early model M4 Sherman equipped with the ring mounted HMG! Well done Dorosh......you fought the good fight and WON! Let this be a lesson to me then......

Mr.Dorosh.... I am still looking for pics of the .50 being fired from the cupola of a Sherman.To be quite honest,the two books that I thought the pics were in turned up nada.I will continue the quest...not out of a "I told ya so" sort of way but a "isn`t that interesting" sort of way.

Where did you get the idea that I am refering to ranges of 0-300 yrds?As I stated in an earlier post,to use the turret mounted HMG in close quarters battle and built up areas would be suicide".No matter where the commander was firing from whether it be from the rear deck or cupola itself which you dispute anyway. Please be patient so that I can locate the photo and refernce it for you.I do hope that you have this same book.I believe it may have the Concord magazine titled Shermans in Combat or something like that.As I said,I have so many bloody books it is hard to remember where specific articles and photos are.I wish that I could scan it and post it but the scanner I have is a piece of sh@t and Santa may bring me a new one. [ December 06, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Negrin ]

Good point.That is exactly what I thought years ago until I finally saw a pic in one of my books that prove otherwise.I will reference this for you asap But with your picture,which is one of those that I made reference to, this alone proves that something other than a plane is being engaged.Unless however the aircraft is on the runway!HAHAHAHAHA [ December 06, 2002, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Negrin ]

What are you looking for in the way of proof?Would you like me to reference the books that I have in my library?If so this would only be possible if some members have the same books.Which could very well be. Thee are pics of tank commanders "engaging snipers" as well as "engaging ground targets". If I go to the trouble of looking up this info again(I have tons of books on WW2)and you dispute the facts as being no proof then what? [ December 06, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Negrin ]

Well,sice nobody has mentioned this yet I might as well.The .50 on the M4 Sherman was mounted on a rotating gun ring.If you look very closely at some photos you will clearly see that in some the HMG is at the front of the turret and yes,the commander can certainly fire it from within his cupola to engage ground targets!In other photos,the gun is in the "travel" position and locked with the gun at the back of the cupola.It could be and was certainly fired from this position by either tank crew or accompanying infantry.With the gun rotated to the back of the turret would also enable the gunner to easily engage aircraft due to semi unrestricted movement on the back deck as opposed from firing into the air from within the cramped confines of the cupola! Yes,on later model Shermans with the improved cupolas with sight blocks,the HMG was posoitioned on a pintle mount on the turret roof. I think with this revelation,we can now put to rest the issue if the .50 was used to engage infantry.It certainly was. [ December 06, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Negrin ]

If the .50 calibre is banned as far as the anti personell role,then I guess the Yanks may as well send all their Barret.50`s home from the Middle East!Many Al Queida operators would certainly breath a sigh of relief.

I know that the .50 was utilized extensively to supress enemy Infantry from long range.Problem here is that the Germans had some very capable snipers who could spoil the tank commanders day.I have also seen photos of US infantry riding on the rear deck of the tank and using the .50 while the tank crew were buttoned up.Yes, the .50 was intended for the AA role primarily when mounted on armor.It was a very capable beast when used against dug in troops or those hiding in building ruins as well as thin skinned light vehicles,halftracks,trucks,etc. To say that the .50 was not used for any other role other than AA would be irresponsible.For close quarters battle in built up areas this would be suicide for a tank commander to attempt to utilize the .50.It is actually a stupid idea to employ the tanks themselves into this type of environment!PANZERFAUST,PANZERSCHRECK.etc! On another note,if the .50 was intended primarily for the AA role,how do the pundits explain the tripod mounted version of the Heavy MG that Allied infantry so enjoyed?It is virtually impossible to get the required elevation on the tripod mounted .50 to engage aircraft unless deeply entrenched with the rear legs of the tripod extending over the trench line!

Illo, You hit the nail on the head with the Allied Air power killing German armor.It was indeed a rather rare occurence.The Germans were masters of camouflage and did in fact move their armor at night.When the Allies carpet bombed the Normandy area before D Day as well as prior to Operation Cobra....breakout from Normandy,many Panzers were obliterated.Realize that they were not individually targeted,but rather the suspected location of tank formations was saturated with HE.The US bombing campaign was quite succesful.On one day they destroyed more of their own tanks and infantry than the Germans could manage! The old saying from WW2 vets was " If the Germans were bombing or straffing us,the Yanks, Brits and Canadians ducked for cover.If the Brits were doing the same then the Germans ran for cover.But,if the Yanks were bombing,everyone ran like hell for cover"!HAHAHAHAHHA! [ December 05, 2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Negrin ]

Geez,Illo,thanks for the wake up call! If you care to actually think about what I wrote istead of simply posting your knee jerk reaction you make not appear so ignorant! Did I not write "big tanks"? If you consider the Sherman,in any variant, to a "big tank" aka HEAVY TANK,well then my friend you are in a small lonely group of uninformed individuals.The Sherman :eek: is classed as a Medium tank for all intent and purpose.When I was answering this post I had Tiger1,2 and Pershings as well as JS2 in mind not "thin skinned,puny Shermans!.Consider that the original post was refering to a Tiger 1 and you may now WAKE UP yourself.

The Firefly could kill Tigers from combat range due largely to it`s Tungsten core shot.It was not uncommon for a Firefly to have multiple Tiger kills to their credit.I believe I read somewhere that an individual Firefly killed 5 Tigers in one engagement.The Firefly was by no means the magic bullet.With relatively thin armor, it for the most part faired no better than a regular M4A1 if caught out in the open.The crew experience and decisiveness usually made the difference between life and death for tankers on either side.Remember,by the time the Allies invaded Normandy experienced German tank crews were at a premiun due to attrition on the Eastern Front!The Allies had some very good crews by this time as well.

Oh yeah,don`t forget about "smokeless" gunpowder.Well the Allies did not posses this in any great quantity so you better believe that as soon as the 57mm opened up the Panther would have zeroed his location mighty quick.One luxury that the "Jerrys" enjoyed from the get go was smokeless powder.Now if say a PAK 40 was lying in wait for Yank tanks utilizing this smokeless propellant(which did smoke,just not as much) and the shear destructive power of the weapon itself.....well....3 dead Shermans!

Ah,the fact that the 3 Shermans were visible targets to the Panther eluded me in my earlier reply.In this light,obviously the Panther would tackle tanks before Infantry provided the Shermans were within range.If the Infantry were equipped with a bazooka or other AT device then here again begs the question.......what would you do in this situation.A US tank hunting team armed with a bazooka could pose just as great a threat to virtually any German armor if they survive long enough to get within range.It is safe to assume then, that the individual tank commander would assess the threats and then prioritze them by immediate threat.......just like in Panzer Elite......another fantastic game!