Panzerschrek unit usage?

[markshot]

WARNING: THIS MESSAGE REPRESENTS A POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR THE AACHEN SCENARIO ON THE CD.

What is the best way to employ my panzerschrek teams? There are four of them in this scenario which takes place in an urban setting. I need to take out a tank and a self-propelled gun.

I have tried the following approaches (note, I have used sharpshooters to button the enemy armor units):

PLAN: Attempt to deploy them far forward and hide them.

RESULT: Generally, enemy rifle squads come across my panzerschrek teams and take them out before they have any kind of shot. They catch them either sneaking forward or after they have hid.

PLAN: Hold my panzerschrek teams back close to the VL objective area which I am defending. The idea is that the extended fire fight will have so decimated and disorganized the attacking rifle squads that they will no longer be so vigilant protecting the armor. In the meantime, the armor will be forced to deploy more forward in order to gain LOS for the final assault on the VL objective area.

RESULT: Either the armor does not come forward enough to present my panzerschrek teams with a good shot opportunity. My teams have no way to get closer as they would need to cross open ground which would expose them.

PLAN: Send the panzerschrek teams to the far flanks and hope that they will be able infiltrate back into the engagement area through holes in the late stages of the fight.

RESULT: The enemy AI did a decent job of providing an infantry screen on the flanks making it difficult move back in close to the armor.

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Note, I have won this mission quite a few times and taken out 1 or 2 enemy armor pieces. But the performance of my panzerschrek teams has seemingly been more a matter of chance than any clear sign of command expertise on my part.

Any tips would be appreciated. Also, any tips on using infantry with panzerfausts to kill armor would be appreciated too.

Thanks.

[Holien]

A difficult unit to use (I include Zooks and Piats) on defense.

You have summed the various approaches well and the down fall for them.

The units are only really effective at less than 100 meters and some would say a lot less than that.

They really are a gamble and the only way in a city fight is to try and find locations where the armour has to be close to provide support for the foot sloggers. (Obvious statement. )

A good example of this is if you place the foot sloggers in rubble infront of a building. If the enemy armour has to get close to help support an attack on them and you have a AT team in a building behind them then you stand some chance of success.

The down side to all urban fighting is that the Zooka and Zhrck are liable to set fire to the building and if not in a building can be taken out fairly quickly.

In the end it is a gamble. All I would say is don't put them out in front of your own Inf screen as they are dead meat for sure.

And only operate on the flanks alone if you want to be "gamey" and know that (by counting points) that the opponent has nothing there to defend against a sneak attack. Otherwise keep them behind the Inf and bring them close when you know where your targets are.

Not much help I guess.

H

[Wreck]

Hiding teams can sometimes work against humans. I find it less effective vs the AI because the AI moves in ways that I do not intuit, both with infantry and tanks.

The plan I would use, is to put the AT teams right alongside your platoons in the MLR. This protects them from enemy infantry. It also gets them leader bonuses if you do it correctly; and these seem to be very worth getting. Second stories are somewhat preferred since they extend range.

It is much better to attempt to kill an enemy AFV at the MLR, *before* it has unloaded its HE into your men, than it is to get a higher probability kill later on at the flags, *after* the AFV has killed 2-3 squads worth of men.

Don't be afraid to move your AT team to get a shot. And don't be afraid to move supporting infantry too, to protect against enemy infantry, to keep the leader in range, and perhaps to draw fire for a moment while getting the shot ready.

[Wreck]

Oh, another thing that is important with AT teams: do not let the tacAI control their shooting. You do not want your teams opening up at 200m, since they will likely miss and then be spotted and wiped out.

Use the ambush command to set a reasonably close (~50-100m) target. If an AFV drives that close the chance to hit in one or two shots is good. If an AFV stops in LOS at longer range you often want to open up anyway, but you can wait until the start of the turn. The main advantage to waiting for a turn start at longer ranges is that you will get the whole turn to fire before the enemy commander knows the AT team is there and can order responses (the AFV to back away, infantry to move up or fire at the team, etc).

[Juha Keratar]

My experience has been, that AT-team can usually fire about 2 grenades before being spotted by the AFV it's targetting. I haven't tested this in the game yet, but it would seem like a viable tactic to order the team to fire in the beginning of the turn, and at the same time order them to withdram (fast?) out of the AFV LOS. Then I would use 'pause' command to give the team something like 30 seconds of time, usually enough for 2-3 shots, before moving. Anyone tried this?

It would really depend on the hit%. If something like >50%, the chances are that you can kill the AFV before the AFV kills you. If <50%, I feel that the team will be butchered, if it doesn't get a lucky hit. Better to try it's luck, and retreat when it's still safe.

-Lunael

[Cybeq]

I think it really comes down to about 50% luck, 50% skill when using inf AT teams. I have had best luck when they operate as part of a platoon. Working close to infantry seems to protect them better. Also, if they hang back and sneak forward you can usually keep them hidden from enemy armor. I always end my move command with a hide. Hide works better than ambush too. A hidden scheck will only unleash when it is assured of a kill. Ambushes are too inflexable most of the time. I only use ambush when I'm certain of an enemy route of advance. Sending them out on their own is sending them out to die. It makes a good diversionary move though.

[Priest]

On the defense I do three things to help my AT teams along.

1.) A CO with

a.) Morale

b.) Command (allows greater movement)

c.) Stealth (allows a better sneak)

2.) Concentrated firepower: I use them together to take out targets and I use them in conjunction with AT guns. The TacAI is very good in the respect that if a Sherman pulls over a rise and an AT Gun and three shrecks open up the Sherm (or any other armor for that matter) usually dies or runs. Displace your shrecks (at least) and do it again.

3.) Reverse Slope: Not only do shots miss but your AT team seems to notice this and is harder to suppress meaning more shots for you!

As far as placement goes I try to put them along my MLR and move them to sweet spots if possible along my MLR.

[JasonC]

Most of the points have been covered, but gathering them may not be obvious amidst less useful points. The general problem is to (1) keep them alive and (2) provide them a target.

The first is best done by keeping them close to the main infantry positions and hiding, or initially in "down-back" deployments - rear side of a building, second set of buildings, etc. In the second case they have to move to firing positions (up and front) at an appropriate time, preferably when a shot is predicted but before LOS would be established. (E.g. tank coming down avenue A, move to cover part of A near a crossroads but still out of sight of the tank's current location).

The second issue is providing them targets. Essentially the only way to do that is to force enemy armor to get close in order to get LOS on your main infantry positions. In a city that means the part of a block that doesn't look straight down a street, back sides of the buildings nearer the corners, and the like. The idea is to force the enemy AFVs to crawl reasonably close down one of the avenues, in order to "get angle" on your main defenders.

If enemy AFVs are already in a good position and dumping HE into your men, see if you can get 100-125 yard shots with shcrecks by short movements within your position. If you can't, then you must *withdraw* the men taking the HE fire. That will both protect them from its effects, and entice the enemy tanks closer to re-establish a target, giving you better chances to line up schreck shots.

Generalized, it is the whole "reverse slope" idea. Of course the long avenues - or front slopes - provide longer fields of fire and so look tempting to site units to fire along. A few snipers or HMG teams - both of which have good ranged fire ability - can do that job for you. But don't expect them to live very long against all the firepower the enemy can muster - long LOS works both ways. If the enemy has long LOS from his tanks to your shooters and has spotted them, it is time to move those shooters.

[Peaveyyyyyyyy]

I have to ask: Are shreks even worth it? Most German infantry have Fausts anyway, and a squad and a shrek are roughly the same money. The squad is better at nearly everything, and once it gets to 30m or so, is pretty good with the Faust. Also, you tend to have many squads, which can't all be neutralised. I ask you, 3 Shreks or 3 squads with PFausts?

As you may have gathered, I'm rubbish at using Shreks, so I've given up. In fact, I can't remember ever getting one to hit an enemy tank against a human opponent. Most humans are too clever to drive their tanks up to within 100m of a wood they haven't scouted.

[JasonC]

Yes, the schrecks are worth it, within reason. Infantry doesn't come in squads, it comes in platoons. The real trade off is one extra infantry platoon and no schrecks, or 4-5 schrecks instead of that last platoon. More than that might well be a waste, but that many will be useful if the enemy brings any serious armor to the party. In 1945 the difference is narrower than earlier on, but before the faust-100 is out they really can't begin to replace the schreck.

The reason is most obviously the range. Even the best late-war fausts are rarely fired beyond 40m. With the earlier ones, 20m is more like it, making them strictly close defense weapons. You say, "enemy rarely drive 100m from unscouted cover", but that is sort of the point. Having schrecks means you are protected from near approach by enemy armor.

What good is that, you might well ask, since armor has range? The answer is a lot, because of terrain. There are many places you can put your infantry where the longest LOS lines in the direction of the enemy edge are only 150m or less. Including areas with significant patches of open ground ahead of them - meaning 60-100m worth.

When you deploy infantry in such locations and have schrecks with them, the enemy armor and infantry have a problem. The armor can't approach within LOS of the defending infantry without giving the schrecks shots. But if it stays out of LOS, it can't help the infantry get close, by suppressing the defenders. If the infantry tries to close on its own, it has to cross open ground in front of unphased infantry, up and firing. Which is suicidal.

Only artillery can dent such positions, and there is never enough of that to cover every one. Especially considering the FOs have problems getting long LOS lines to them, and first they have to be located, etc. But use of them also tends to draw the enemy armor farther forward, pushing the safety zone. Just sitting back doesn't work well if there aren't any LOS lines to anything that matters from that far back. It is the need to get angles and restore LOS that forces armor to move forward.

But can't a faust do the same thing? No, because there simply aren't many locations where 20m range will keep the enemy armor out of LOS. Back sides of woods maybe, or the interior of buildings. But those locations can't cover wide stretches of open ground, to prevent enemy infantry from getting into the same body of cover, safely. Whereas the sum of all areas within 100 yards of cover can be half of a typical CM map, which gives plenty of ground to choose from, to find the limited LOS, "dead ground", natural infantry strongpoint locations.

Does this mean the schrecks only have a deterrent effect, and never get any kills? No, because typically attackers will have to push at some time or another. Also, surprise shots are possible, e.g. from behind walls or from upper stories of buildings (easier shots at range than from woods, since branches in the way degrade accuracy) - sometimes by stalking the tank with the schreck, instead of just waiting for it to come to you.

Schrecks are also more successful because the player has much more control over how they act. You can hide them without sacrificing infantry firepower. You can decide whether to open up or not, and at what target. You can move them independently, to stalk or close the range, etc. They can fire more than once, and because of their ammo supply you can risk shots are 20-25% hit probability ranges, sometimes. The one downside is they are more fragile, with only two guys.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Peaveyyyyyyyy]

Fine. I can see that they can be useful ambushing on defence, so long as you can find dead ground. ISTM, though, that the dead ground is usually found behind the flag areas on QB maps. I hide the little buggers for ages, but the attacker has no real need to get into my defensive areas with his armour in most cases. He can just stand off and pound me. Maybe I've been unlucky with maps.

On the attack, I find that the Shreks get picked off first by the NME, and being slower doesn't help. Also, you'd be amazed how well 45 squads kill tanks if you just banzai them all around. All you need is numbers and a buttoned tank

[Moriarty]

Panzerschrecks are definitely worth the investment as infantry squads rarely fire the faust if it means getting shot by enemy infantry. In short, if the other guy's infantry is nearby, the faust won't be used.

In a city fight, especially with heavy, two story buildings, schrecks can be effectively used from the second story through the thinner top armor of the AFV. Take care in using them in light buildings as the backblast sometimes will set the building on fire and kill your AT team.

Where possible, I prefer to have either squad or HMG support for the schreck team. A schreck and an HMG-42 is a nifty combination.

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: Moriarty ]

[JasonC]

"He can just stand off and pound me. Maybe I've been unlucky with maps."

I doubt it. It is a matter of placement not of the schrecks themselves, but of the rest of the force. If you put the regular infantry on the forward edge of your bits of cover, to see wide areas, then it is easy for enemy armor to see them. He can then, indeed, stand off and blast.

But if, instead, you put the regular infantry on the back side of bodies of cover, away from treelines, behind buildings rather than in them, behind a crest line, etc - then suddenly it gets much harder for enemy armor to help an attack. The LOS to such locations are usually quite short and restricted.

I am not talking about the schrecks, I am talking about everybody, the ordinary infantry especially. Which is the -target- enemy AFVs will try to get shots at. It is proper placement of the targets, of the "bait", that can make the schrecks effective.

As for the "swarm 'em with faust-armed infantry", my experience is that all the tanks need is about 40-50m of open ground around them and that won't work. The tank's MGs quickly pin or break anyone rushing them in open ground - if the enemy infantry even lets you that close. Faust ambushes can still work in "bypass" terrain - e.g. narrow passages between woods or buildings. But charging tanks over open ground essentially never works in my experience. In fog or at night mebe.

(Of course, 1500 points of anything vs. 100 pts will hurt it, but that isn't saying anything).

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Rodimzew]

My experience with Shrek's is positive and if i could select one i take ist. On Defense i combine them with one or two HMGs to suppress approaching infantry. if there is much infantry approaching, they are mortar fodder. They are an ideal weapon for streetfighting. I usually keep them in the second row of buildings, behind a platoon which holds the first line, together with a the HQ. If armor appears, they move or sneak into the first row, second story to try a shot. Comparing the Shrek with a PF, the Shrek is more independent and is more specialized to AT use. The platoon seems to be better in firefights against infantry. I never used yet a PF equipped squad for stalking tanks. But if i put a Shrek to a PF-equipped Squad, they gain more shots to the tank. One or two shreks with a platoon lets you build AT-Strongpoints in your defense line and move them quickly within the line.

In an advance situation i keep them some distance (20m) behind and above (2nd level) the squads in the "save" building row. Normally there will start an infantry struggle in or between some buildings and if armor appears, the Shreks will advance and shoot. I always keep my shreks hidden, it even helps in open ground.