Unit Levels, are they worth the price?

[Matt the Paladin]

Which is a wiser option, to get a whole bunch of Green troops, a medium level of Regulars, or a smaller force of Elite units. Also, what exactly are the advantages that higher level units have, other than the fact that better units have better morale? Are there some units or situations where I should always get Elite or Green troops.

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"War is like a cat, it is easy to let out of the bag, but hard as hell to put back in!"

-Me

[Juardis]

Never ever buy green. I usually buy vets but have come to appreciate the numerical superiority that regulars seem to offer. I just need to practice keeping them together in tight C&C, otherwise they break like dry twigs. (In other words, buy regulars). Definitely get vet or higher for your support units though (AT teams, sharpshooters, mortar teams, etc). All IMHO of course.

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Jeff Abbott

[Trooper]

I will generally buy Vets if I have the choice. They are tough to crack under pressure. (At least, fighting against regular troops). More than once have I had a TCP opponent mention to me "Those Vets are tough"

Just played a TCP game with my vets attacking entrenched crack defenders. That hurt a bit...

NTM

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The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle!

[Pak40]

I've noticed that Veteran commanders generally have more bonus abilities.

If I can affort it, I usually buy everything veteran. If not, then I will mix it up: 2 Regular platoons of infantry + 1 Veteran platoon of infantry. HMGs veteran, bazookas veteran.

You want your HMGs veteran because they have lots of ammo and you want them around for the duration of the battle. If they are Regular then the might break halfway into the battle and you'll lose important firepower.

Bazookas also are important because you want them to kill their target on the first or second shot. They probably wont survive if they miss the first two. I assume a veteran bazooka has a better chance to hit than a Regular, therefore I buy vets whenever possible.

The only benefit of having a veteran spotter is a decreased wait time for the rounds to come in, the accuracy is the same no matter what the level of experience. The amount of time decreased isn't that much unless you buy Crack or Elite. Therefore, I only buy Regular spotters.

[109 Gustav]

One of the biggest advantages to getting veteran inf is that regulars tend to break relly easily if their HQ is killed.

For really important units, consider going up to Crack skill level. Crack 57mm AT guns, for example, are invincible within 300 yards. I never get elites, they don't seem to be a whole lot better than crack.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Juardis:

Never ever buy green.

I agree! Why use green troops, when Conscripts are cheaper?

Cheers

Olle

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Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight...

[BeWary]

To be fair to the Greenies, I won a 2000 point quick battle ME against a completely Veteran force, including heavy tanks, and I only had some tank destroyers. I actually got a Major Victory, IIRC. They did pretty well, as long as you keep them in C&C. In fact, I might even do that again, as I had a lot more troops than he did, which I think more than compensated for their higher chance to break. Who says it's not easy being green?

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"Liberty or Death?" Make it "Victory or Pretty Damned Badly Wounded", and I'm yours. - a prospective recruit during the American Revolution.

[Guest wwb_99]

Green infantry have one huge advantage: Quantity. Even if he has some die hard crack squads, when they get plastered from four different fire sources, they break all the same.

This really comes to bear when the other guy buys veteran, because the 3 to 2 or so advantage you recieve in numbers of squads. Note also that German leaders tend to have very good special bonuses, no matter what level, making taking green axis troops slightly less risky.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Juardis]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Green infantry have one huge advantage: Quantity. Even if he has some die hard crack squads, when they get plastered from four different fire sources, they break all the same.

That's why I'm trying to master using regulars - quantity. However, for greenies to work effectively like you said, you have to keep them close, you have to focus their firepower, and above all, you have to hope to God a tank doesn't draw a bead or arty starts dropping (especially since they're close and focused). Very bad for morale

[The Commissar]

I will say that from personal experience, low level and high level troops have their place. Lets take one of my recent games, for an example.

It was a random unit experience, manual unit selection, with my Conscript/Green German forces on a Probe against British regulars.

I was attacking a villageand it was rainy. My men were Combined Arms, his were all Inf.

I expected lots of AT guns, so I bought a lot of Green SP guns (the highest quality I could get). The infantry were a mix of Green and Conscript.

The game was overall brutal and quite close, with my Green SP guns demolishing my enemy completely and totally. I'd say they accounted for 65-70% enemy casualties on that battle. The accuracy and reload time dont suffer too much on Green SP guns I have found, and the large-calibered 150mm are just as damaging if they were Elite. My Wespes, with their 105mm performed admirably dspite their experience, firing on the run, reloading quickly, and despite the bad conditions bogging very little.

My infantry was another story. In fact, they barely held. Despite my slight numerical advantage, my men would have been butchered without my SP guns. One terrible but often little-mentioned thing about Green/Conscript inf is that they run out of ammo VERY quickly. After 2 turns of a firfight between one of my Conscript platoons and an enemy position, my platoon was low. Green faired slightly better.

Overall, I dont suggest you use Conscript infantry if you can help it. Greens are barely acceptable, with Regulars being your midline selection, good for most purposes and worth your investment.

In another game, I observed the superiority enjoyed by Crack units over their Veteran counterparts. My opponent who was a good player and knew how to use his men had Crack soldiers, while I had Veterans. It was a ME.

Let me tell you, I had only slightly more men then he had, and his Crack teams totally demolished my Vets. His men refused to break under the heaviest of barrages! His soldiers seemed to have had super-human endurance, despite costing only slightly more then my own men.

So, if you have a choice between Vet and Crack, by all means choose Crack.

Well, thats about it I guess. Hope it helped.

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Gremlin]

The one bit of advice I'd offer on the use of green troops is this: when infantry engage each other, lure the enemy to come to you when your troops are in cover. Your troops are far less likely to break than when moving forward towards enemy fire, particularly over open ground. That's true of infantry in general, but the effect is greatly amplified with green troops.

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[Thermopylae]

Of course the real point is that you should stick with regulars because thats what was there.

[Juardis]

Originally posted by The Commissar:

One terrible but often little-mentioned thing about Green/Conscript inf is that they run out of ammo VERY quickly. After 2 turns of a firfight between one of my Conscript platoons and an enemy position, my platoon was low. Green faired slightly better.

Get outta town! So that means regulars use up ammo faster than vets, who use them up faster than cracks, who ... Is that really true? If so, that is something to keep in mind and I appreciate you pointing that out.

Yet you say your Green SPs seemed to have the same ROF? Or was it slower, just not that much slower? It would make sense that a Green vehicle have a slower ROF than a more experienced crew. But if not...

[Pud]

I must be missing something (my brain maybe?). I play QB's and I only ever get the choice between 2 types. Veterans and Regular. The rest are grayed out. If I change the troop settings in the QB setup, some other combination (2 types) becomes available depending on that setting but I never get to choose from the full list, eg have green and elite in the same battle. What have I missed?

Pud

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Pud:

but I never get to choose from the full list, eg have green and elite in the same battle. What have I missed?

Pud

You are correct, unless you're creating a custom QB, which several of us do. We open the scenario editor, give the specifics of the scenario you want (trees, hills, countryside, weather, time, date, etc) then have the scenario editor autocreate a map. You then purchase your forces (or have a 3rd party purchase them for you). When you do this you have full range over what experience levels you can have.

HTH

[Horncastle]

Does anyone find that green troops are in most cases sufficient for defensive actions?

Being dug in and having well planned defensive positions with good ambushes makes them pretty effective, you can then also outweigh the attackers numerical advantage. I also find that having more troops can lead to uncertainties in the opponent as he really doesnt know where the bulk of you force might really be.

In attack I think one does have to take regular or maybe vets as artillery can play havoc usually.

[Jackson]

Ooh, quantity versus quality, good question!

First off, let’s dispel some myths regarding higher quality: Forward Observers do not gain any benefit from higher experience other than calm under fire. Tanks do not have a lower probability to bog. HQ units do not have a higher probability for special bonuses.

Generally, higher experience improves the following: Rate of fire, calm under fire, gun accuracy (varies), turret speed (slightly, at least for Panthers in my experience), command delay.

Infantry gain the most from higher experience. The fire-power is actually increased for infantry units due to the fact that more men are firing, and less are cowering. Squads/teams of veteran or greater can act independent of HQs. AT guns and zooks/schrecks also benefit greatly from higher experience.

In a QB (American) having only the choice between regular and veteran, I will spend the extra money on one veteran rifle platoon that will be broken up into half-squads for scouting, and veteran bazooka teams and AT guns. That’s it. For everything else, quantity is better than quality. When playing as the German, the infantry is generally cheaper, so I can afford to make almost all infantry units veteran.

[Gremlin]

Actually, FO's with high experience can call in arty strikes more quickly than their less experienced peers.

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[Juardis]

Originally posted by Jackson:

Infantry gain the most from higher experience. The fire-power is actually increased for infantry units due to the fact that more men are firing, and less are cowering.

How do you know this? You can't test it that I know of. Did BTS say this? If true, it is yet another plus for quality.

[JoePrivate]

The name of the game with infantry in CM is volume of fire. Sure in a straight up fight an Elite platoon will walk over a platoon of Regulars, but how often are the engagements fair? You want to bring as much firepower to bear and from as many different angles as possible. The angles because they drastically reduce morale of the target, causing it to break quicker. More is almost always better.

A higher experienced squad does have a higher firepower rating, can be verified by playing the game and checking the target FP rating. Higher experienced FOs also have a reduced delay when adjusting a barrage.

[Wisbech_lad]

IMHO, it also depends on the length of the battle. Whatever the quality, the ammo load out is the same. Once a battle gets to 35, 40 turns plus the first echelon of troops is pretty much guaranteed to be low on ammo, and even tanks (that have lasted that long) will be low, especially of HE.

I find that in these cases, the quantity of Reg/ Green troops comes into its own, as your reserves can be that much larger. In short battles, this is not a factor.

[Wisbech_lad]

In QB, you can only choose between two levels to avoid undue "gaminess"

This is because, as many above have pointed out, quality matters much more for some units than others.

For AT units, armour fighting armour, sharpshooters, getting the first shot, and hitting with that first shot, is key. What you have are eggshells armed with hammers

For most infantry, arty, FO's, and armour vs Infantry, volume is usually more important, as one shot will rarely kill you, or what you are aiming at. Getting the most shots in for your purchase cost is therefore more important

With free choice of levels in QB, my guess is that you would see (for example) crack Hellcats and green Priests/ HT's, or crack 6'lber AT guns with Green 3" mortars.

[Juardis]

Originally posted by JoePrivate:

A higher experienced squad does have a higher firepower rating, can be verified by playing the game and checking the target FP rating.

OK, I'll test this. It makes sense IRL, but I had no idea that BTS went down to this level of detail. Thanks.

[Matt the Paladin]

I've experimented a bit and have decided that mixing Elite and Green troops (if the rules allow it) can work pretty well if you use them right. I usually use an Elite or Crack group to open a hole in the enemy lines, then fill that hole with a lot of Green or Conscript troops. The question really depends on your tactical style. If you like to charge en masse then Green or Conscript troops are better; If you like to attack without taking casualties, Elite or Crack is better; Or you can try an integrated aproach; If all this experience stuff is too complicated for you, just use Regulars all the time, and you'll probably do okay.

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"War is like a cat, it is easy to let out of the bag, but hard as hell to put back in!"

-Me

[Jackson]

Originally posted by Juardis:

How do you know this? You can't test it that I know of. Did BTS say this? If true, it is yet another plus for quality.

Yes, BTS stated some months ago that infantry unit FP is increased with higher experiance levels. I think it could be tested by checking the fire power rating given at the end of the target line when held over a soft target. All of my statements regarding quality are based on posts on this forum. Tests were made regarding FO time-to-target and tank bogging, and they showed no appreciable difference.