oddball Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Hi Wild Bill, I have a question I hope you can answer for me... I fired up the "Operation Ardennes-Team DeSobry" operation which should have been six battles in length. Playing the first one all the way through, I received the ending "score" screen which informed me that an "Axis Total Victory" had occured. It's not the fact that my ego cannot deal with the program assigning me/itself this "score", but that the operation halted completely at that point. ie: I was NOT allowed to continue on to the second 'battle' of the op. I had plenty of armored and infantry assets availlable with which to continue the battle into the next "frame" and, per my orders, I held to town of Noville and the road to Bastogne. The Germans which remained were in complete disarray and pretty heavily suppressed all around. My units were in great shape morale-wise, also and ammo wasn't an issue. Here's the casualty numbers: Germans - 102 Casualties (24 KIA), 2 Guns KO, 21 vehicles KO. Men OK 227 US - 26 Casualties (8 KIA), 10 vehicles KO. Men OK 367 Am I missing something perhaps? ie: I recall an old Panzer General scenario in which, if you left a particular town unguarded on the first turn, the German AI would grab it and the scenario would be over before you even got a chance to do impart orders to your units. I'd really like to continue on with this operation as it was absolutely fascinating to play out. Regards, Oddball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 I don't think that should have happened, Oddball. It sounds very strange to me. It played all the way through again and again during the testing. Did you save any turns? I am especially interest in the last turns. If you did, send them to me via E-Mail and let me take a look. billw@thegamers.net From what you describe, you should have been able to continue. WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Somebody posted the exact same question over in the main forum. Charlse answered with 2 things of interest. 1. While the US player successfully held the town of Noville and even pushed forwards from it about 500m, a large group of unseen Germans reached the map edge on his right flank (Road to Bastogne area I guess) and thus ended the game. 2. Charlse said this shouldn't have ended the game. Instead, the desired result should have been that battle #2 started with the US still having a toe-hold on the map. However, this fix won't be in 1.02 because that's already frozen. ------------------ -Bullethead It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 I had not thought of that, Bullethead. And you are right. Thank you! As the designer, I should have remembered that part. There is a group of Germans on the US right flank that head over the hill. The best strategy...Oops, that is a spoiler. I'll stop there. Just remember, US player, you are responsible not only for Noville but entire west side of the map. I want to give a hint, but I'm biting my tongue! Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddball Posted June 24, 2000 Author Share Posted June 24, 2000 SPOILER POST: READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL =============================== >>Just remember, US player, you are >>responsible not only for Noville but >>entire west side of the map. >>I want to give a hint, but I'm biting my >>tongue! Wild Bill My guess at what's happening here is that you've designated German occupation of any area south of the road running east/west over there on the US right flank as representing control of the road to Bastogne. I have noted a platoon of heavily suppressed and shot up Germans over there, and if the game were to continue further, I'd have rolled them up with the platoon of unmolested grunts and the Sherman I moved into position to thwart their southerly advance. You'll note upon receipt of the file that the majority of these Germans are in a state of panic, badly shaken, broken, or taking cover. ie: the situation is in serious doubt from their perspective. Nor have they yet reached the "road to Bastogne". This reinforces my assumption that it is merely control of real estate south of that east/west road which is determining things. Perhaps a victory flag or two placed about the map might clear up any questions regarding just what the US defender is supposed to hang onto. My guess and I see now I was incorrect, was that merely holding the town itself was the determining factor. Anyway. Per your request, I'm shootin' my saved game file to you. Just let it run once and the ending tally screen will pop up. Hopefully, eyeballing things will allow you to give me a definite answer as to just where my problem lays with this one. I'm really looking forward to seein' the remaining 5 scenarios for this one, but it looks like in order to do so, I'm gonna have to play this one out all over again.Nuts. <gggg> I'm looking forward to gaming more Will Bill scenarios down the road. Regards, Oddball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 Thanks, Oddball. Sorry I played a dirty one on you!...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted June 25, 2000 Share Posted June 25, 2000 Here's a sort-of-related question about this operation (minimal spoilers): After the first battle, I still held the town of Noville - no German forces even closely approached the town. For the start of the second battle, my setup zone only included the rear 1/3 or so of the town (forcing me to abandon several nice defensive positions). I was worried that the Germans might be set up in the town, but I slowly advanced and finally met the Germans at the other end of town, regaining my initial positions before the scenario end (I also had flanking platoons well out on either side). For battle 3, I had the entire town within my setup zone. This time I'm sure no german forces even reached the edge of my setup zone (I only took 7 casualties in that battle), but for the start of battle 4 I am once again relegated to the rear of the town. Is this by design? Is this because battles 2 and 4 are night? Nice scenario, WB -- the first few turns of the first battle were, shall we say, intense? ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 25, 2000 Share Posted June 25, 2000 Thanks Leland! Yes, I'm not strong on computer computations, but Charles addressed that issue saying that the computer calculates on the basis of the battle completed what the start line is to be. The same thing occurs in the Arnhem Operation. It can be frustrating thinking you might have to retake it. That however is not the case. What you do is get set up anew by usually moving into the area and getting ready for the next attack. Agreed, it is kind of nerve shattering when you first start WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 Since you mentioned the Arnheim operation, I would like give a couple of suggestions for you, Wild Bill. I was playing the Brits, and at the end of the first battle I controlled all of the town on the south of the bridge. The A/I then proceeded to execute a series of Grabner-esque suicide rides down the bridge, for every battle thereafter. This of course lead to a very lopsided battle. As you may know, Col. Frost position was overrun from the SOUTH (from you map) by heavy German forces, including King Tiger tanks. I recommend that the operation start with the Brits in possesion of the bridge and a perimeter in the town around the southern span. Initially have the Grabner force attack from the North. Subsequent battles should have the Germans attacking from the South, trying to penetrate the perimeter. Each turn the Germans should have more and more forces, including the Tigers. That would make for a more exciting and balanced operation. BTW, I seem to remember the Brits having some 6-pounders with them. Keep of the good work! You scenarios are a lot of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 Thanks, Keith. These are some very good comments. In reality, the Tigers could be included in the last battle. The big problem with operations is setting up zones. After the first battle, I have no control really where the Germans (or the Brits) are going to be set up. In fact after the first battle, the computer will only set up German forces south of the River. Probably one of those Stugs should have been a Tiger as you suggest. But thanks for the comments. That is how we are able to make them better. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Hey Wild Bill, First off, I want to thank you for the work you have done with the game. You and the gang have done a great job helping develop the scenarios. But after that toss of platitudes, I must say that I just experienced the same exact thing that oddball did with the DeSobry operation. Just like oddball, everything the Germans had left on the field was shattered and I was in good position with lines extended beyond Noville in the direction in which the Germans came. Just wanted to let you know that this situation was replicated. Keep up the great work, it is appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Hey Jgdpzr, Thank you very much. Those are much appreciated thoughts. Okay, you guys have convinced me to go back and play it myself. But that's okay, because I enjoy the battle anyway. Promise, I'll tell the truth, if it does it to me too (G)...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Teg Posted June 30, 2000 Share Posted June 30, 2000 Hey Wild Bill, DeSobry is a great operation. But I noticed a place on the left flank of the German lines where the road, coming down the hill, has a "slope" in it. Initially, I didn't notice it, and I sent a group of German vechiles charging down it. The result was a big traffic jam. I was wondering if it was intended to be there? It occurs around an area of elevation 8 and some 10s. Again thanks for a great operation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted July 1, 2000 Share Posted July 1, 2000 Enjoy the ride, Wild Bill. Methinks you'll have a leg-up on the AI. Potential Spoiler stuff down below... * * * * * * * * * Just wanted to give you some more details about what happened in my battle. The furthest point of advance for the Germans was on my (US) right flank, they had just crossed the first road (from the east) that runs directly north-south. I sprung an ambush on turn 14, continued through 15 that crushed their advance. The only units remaining across the road were two VolksSMGs with only one and two survivors respectively. All other units on that flank were at 50% or more casualties except one or two green SMGs further back. On the left flank there were a couple of SMGs with only light casualties in the forest just northeast of Noville, but no enemy units had passed the north-south axis of the front of Noville on that flank. The only armor the Germans had remaining was one PzIV still up on the hill in the southeast and a Stug42, in the same area. I lost 7 vehicles, to his 18, and sustained 33 casualties to his 103. Perhaps the scenario was setup so that simply by advancing past a certain point the Germans win? If that was the case, then I'd be a little disappointed since it somewhat limits the defenders options in terms of setting up kill zones and local counterattacks. At the very least, the defender should be notified up front that they cannot let the Germans advance past a certain point. Gamey, perhaps, but I believe so is ending an operation prematurely when it is clear that the defender holds the field after the first engagement. I hope these comments don't come across as harsh, I'm only interested because I really enjoyed the battle, and looked forward to continuing the operation. But alas, the seal has been broken... Anyhoo, thanks again for your great work! I look forward to the rest of your battles and operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 Bill- (spoilers) I have to add a 'disappointed' to the list. I had the same situation as Oddball, pretty much - the Jerries cut me up at first, but a couple of luckily-placed (and darned accurate) Stuarts zapped every single vehicle in the right flank before the over-the-hill attack even started. On turn 15 some very tired Volksies broke like bad breath on my rightmost position by the road - a .50 and 2 rested platoons. The carnage dealt out by the .50 was headed towards 'ugly', and yet I still lost the ability to play further. I consider it a "Total Opening of a GI-Issue Can of Whoop-Ass", regardless of what the scenario said. I look forward to more Ops. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 Actually, nothing is broken. In an operation, the goal if you are defending is to keep the enemy from penetrating to a point where he either does or can without you stopping him reach the edge of the map that belongs to you. Conversely, the same is true if you are the attacker. That is just the way the game and the operations are set up. Now if it is a destroy operation, that is different, because you win by killing. So really, I can't feel badly about using the setup for operations as it comes with the game. You use what you have. Historically, the goal of the German forces was to reach and take Bastogne. For the Americans it was to keep them out. Team Desobry had the task of holding Noville in such a way that the Germans could not get to Bastogne. Be that as it may, I am glad you enjoyed the battle and I am sorry if you were disappointed. Win some, lose some. And some enjoyed it, I'll have to settle for that. Thanks for the input Dalem and Jgdpzr...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 Miles, I missed your earlier post, sorry. Yes, that was intentional. There were some sharp slopes on the high ground around Noville and traveling across country was perilous for tanks at best. This I attempted to demonstrate. That is why the Germans need Bastogne so desparately. The tanks did not do well in open country in the Ardennes because there was not much of it. Bastogne was a road hub that would allow faster movement for the panzers. So yes, I did not want to make it to easy or overpowering on the flank. It would have been an easy victory for the Germans with that edge. Hope this helps... ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 Wild Bill, Thanks for the feedback. I understand the nature of operations and how the point is to hold ground and prevent the enemy from reaching certain points on the map. I guess I don't understand how in the battle I played, it could have been fairly judged that I failed to do this. As I stated earlier, not only were the German troops decimated, at no point on the map did they have anything close to clear access to the western or soutwestern part (road to Bastogne) of the map. No way were the Germans in any position to get around Noville. They were clearly checked on all flanks and in retreat and their furthest point of advance was just barely past the front north-south axis of Noville. But I really don't want to sound like I am complaining. Just expressing the belief that the "terminal axis" or point may need some adjustment since it is such a final determination for the entire campaign. Nice job on the first scenario of the operation, nonetheless. The layout sets up some interesting fields of fire and I like how the Germans approach the town. ------------------ "Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger The Dude abides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 5, 2000 Share Posted July 5, 2000 Looks like the bar ate us, Jgdpzr Somebody else makes the rules; I go by 'em Still, I'm glad you got some pleasure out of the battle. I understand your frustration, I really do. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocky Posted July 5, 2000 Share Posted July 5, 2000 Same as Jgdpzr POSSIBLE SPOILER Tought i had it pretty well covered had 2 plattons and a Sherman covering the right flank nothing got across the first road and had complete control of town Confused you bet Still loved the scenario can't really call it an operation i wasnt allowed to continue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted July 5, 2000 Share Posted July 5, 2000 Actually, my first time playing Team DeSobry, I held that hill on the right with a a pair of infantry platoons backed by a .50 and a zook team. I slaughtered a German force that tried to cross over it. I had just shot up the last squad when the game ended. Scenario two starts, and EVERYTHING I had in Noville is now outside of it, including the two platoons of infantry and support I had on the right. D'oh!!! I guess I'll try to push back in, but it's kind of annoying. I had that town held cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 6, 2000 Share Posted July 6, 2000 Bill- I didn't mean to imply above that I didn't enjoy the one battle - on the contrary it was great! I was just disappointed that I couldn't play more of the Operation. I don't feel qualified to judge victory conditions because I've not created any scenarios yet myself, but I was surprised to have achieved the complete opposite of what I had expected. My input is simply that it felt kindof like the last turn of one of those SL/ASL scenarios where Victory Conditions are met by "Sole Occupancy": "Well, sure, you have the building surrounded by a company of riflemen and 3 tanks, but my lone half squad is the Sole Occupant at the end of turn 10, so I win." Next time I play that Op, I'll simply defend further forward. Thanks for the scenarios and the Ops! Feed us more, please. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted July 6, 2000 Share Posted July 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem: My input is simply that it felt kindof like the last turn of one of those SL/ASL scenarios where Victory Conditions are met by "Sole Occupancy": "Well, sure, you have the building surrounded by a company of riflemen and 3 tanks, but my lone half squad is the Sole Occupant at the end of turn 10, so I win."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Right. It's not a problem when you can read the VCs and understand exactly what you are asked to do. But I think we haven't got a good feel yet for the algorithm behind how the front line is calculated for subsequent battles of operations, which is leading to some frustration. This is why I'd like to know some of the details (or, failing that, some general rules-of-thumb) of this algorithm, so we can attack and defend more intelligently. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 6, 2000 Share Posted July 6, 2000 Dalem, no offense taken at all. I understand your frustration. I share it. I have shared it. Thanks for the comments. I think you have helped some other folks who'll be walking down the same road. It was difficult for me to grasp the varying victory conditions in operations. I must confess that. And it is sometimes hard to define exactly what you must do. I should have done a better job of that so it is my error. And the feedback from you gentlemen will help in future efforts to not trip over that same rock in the road. Many thanks! ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 7, 2000 Share Posted July 7, 2000 Bill- What can I say (or type) but 'thanks again'? And unrelated (no spoilers), I'm 3/4 through "Kommerscheidt" (I think that's yours too) and am having a BLAST. Not as many BLASTS as my determined AI Enemy, perhaps, but better to give than to receive. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts