More about artillery spotters

[Levine]

Gentlemen,

I might be misunderstanding something here, but I consider the following scenario, which I experienced yesterday, to be less than realistic:

Two US infantry squad, situated inside fox holes, battered by previous rifle and MG fire (casualties unknown), currently receive fire from three Axis sources: one rifle squad (inc. LMG), two half trucks (MG). All sources of fire are on their left flank. Since I can't get rid of the US squads, and moreover -- they direct artillery onto my forces, I send two 81mm artillery spotters crawling up a hill to the middle right section, just enough to get a LOS. Noticing them, the two US rifle squads STOP returning fire, rotate 45 degrees AWAY from the three fire sources, and concentrate all their efforts on eliminating my spotters.

As the same time (three turns) the two 81mm mortars, located down the hill about 100m behind the spotters do nothing but "reload". Eventually, the two spotters are eliminated.

Questions to this learned forum:

1. How can infantry in fox holes tell the difference between enemy rifle squad and spotters crawling behind a hill top 150m away?

2. What solider in the world would turn their backs to three sources of constant fire just to eliminate a fourth force, which is substantially small and doesn't even fire as them?

3. What's up with the slacking mortars? Do they need LOS? If yes, what's the spotter for?

Any comments will be much appreciated.

[Guest ACTOR]

Well there is a difference between a 81mm Spotter and a command unit that "spots" (provide LOS) for on-board mortars. An 81mm Spotter is for off-board mortars, and this type of unit does not require LOS to deliver ordnance. If you have on-board mortars, they either have to be controlled by a platoon leader with LOS to the target, or they have to have LOS to the target.

Off-board spotters tend to draw plenty of fire when spotted. Keep 'em hidden.

[Levine]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACTOR:

1. An 81mm Spotter is for off-board mortars, and this type of unit does not require LOS to deliver ordnance

2. Off-board spotters tend to draw plenty of fire when spotted. Keep 'em hidden. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. My forces include two 81mm mortars and a 81mm spotter. You say that the spotters can't give directions to the nearby mortars, but rather only to off board mortars. How realistic is that?

2. I fail to understand that. Identifying two men, wearing camouflage, crawling in bushes 150m away, and doing nothing but watching you is mighty difficult. Turning your back to heavy fire and hunting only these two is quite unlikely.

I think that ID of spotters is way too easy (also see previous postings on the topic), and fire management towards them is unrealistically strong. In fact, you can use the poor spotters as baits, drawing enemy fire away from the main assault body.

P.S. I use v1.04 with full fog o' war.

[Panzer Man]

I agree, and I already posted my story..In yeaghers farm,,The spotter is on a hilltop a good 1100 meters from the Germans AT guns.After I destroyed one AT gun I set my sights on the second.This time I positioned myself from the viewpoint of the AT gun to see how they reacted to the barrage (which was awesome)..Once The game started again they turned their gun directly on my spotter..How on earth could they possibly have known he was there..?? They didnt choose any of the surrounding individual platoon leaders or machine gunners, just the spotter..Fortunately he survived the barrage...In my opinion they should be much much harder to see by the AI..

[pucker]

Just a quick question.

Do you use the Hide order. Although I only have the demo game at present I have played a number of games using spotters and they have not yet been loacted by the enemy.

Pucker

[Guest ACTOR]

Levine -

I agree that spotters tend to be spotted VERY easily...maybe too easily.

Which, is why I keep them behind terrain that blocks LOS to their target, and keeps their target from killing them.

As far as the 81mm Spotter not being able to provide LOS for on-board mortars, that's the way it is. We don't get a vote at this point. Understand, that any leader can spot for these folks. That means you can keep the mortars behind a hill while you send the Platoon Leader up to the ridge to spot for the mortars. This works very well.

As far as units targeting spotters when under attack, I can't say that I've seen that. I have seen a spotter get targeted at close range (<50m) and draw fire. Subsequently the unit firing on the spotter was opened on by a MMG and they stopped firing at the spotter and redirected their fire to the MMG over 250m away.

Pucker - I use the hide order until I am ready to use the spotter to call down fire on my enemy. Seems to work well.

[Levine]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACTOR:

Levine -

Which, is why I keep them behind terrain that blocks LOS to their target, and keeps their target from killing them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actor -- Do you target them on "view blocked" targets? How effective is that?

Or

Is is that the spotter just has to view the target area ONCE to provide fire, and after initiating he can get out of enemy LOS.

Thanks for your knowledgeable comments.

[Panzer Man]

If the spotter is within radio range of HQ,the HQ can act as the spotters eyes,,I have done this with the Mortars already and it works..But does the effectiveness change?? Probably..I will try the "hide" method next.

[IntelWeenie]

HQs can act as "spotters" for on-board infantry mortars (but not any other guns or HT-mounted mortars). If more than one HQ is in command range of the mortar, check the C&C lines to see which one it's connected to. The big advantages of spotting like this is timeliness and accuracy. There is no time lag like with OBA. IIRC, there is no limit to the number of mortars a HQ can spot for and the HQ can HIDE while spotting!

Forward Observers cannot observe for on-board units. There will be a time lag until the rounds come in and accuracy is somewhat reduced (compared to on-board fire). FOs do NOT need line of sight to their targets, but the time lag will be about twice as long and accuracy REALLY suffers.

Bonus Tip: TRPs (Target Reference Points) increase the accuracy and timeliness of off-board artillery, even if the FO does not have LOS to the TRP.

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Guest ACTOR]

Levine -

The spotter never has to the see the area being targeted. If LOS is established and maintained, then accuracy is supposed to increase. Without LOS rounds can, and do fall - short, long, on your own troops, etc.

This can be especially troublesome when the arty is big, like 14" cannons. One miss there and you're in big trouble.

The main point of all this, is that off board arty is pretty effective without LOS. It is REALLY effective if you have LOS or a TRP. TRPs are nice, because they cut down on the amount of time required to bring the arty into play.

If you have any other questions, let me know. E-mail me, or post some more. It's always nice to help out a fellow CM addict. By the way...has the Borg assimilated you yet?

If not...here Borgy Borgy Borgy

[RCHRD]

I agree with the thrust of this reasoning. An F.O. should be almost invisible.

[Los]

"My forces include two 81mm mortars and a 81mm spotter. You say that the spotters can't give directions to the nearby mortars, but rather only to off board mortars. How realistic is that?"

It's perfectly relistic. The two onboard tubes are just that, for whatever reason they ended up there then they belong to the units on map. The spotter represents an FO with a radio that's calling in mortar fire for a battery off the map which is prepostioned with laid in tubes and an FDC (Fire Direction Center). Just because you are a spotter doesn't mean you belong to the same unit as every other moratr on the map. When you purchase a spotter you are purchasing off map support. That spotter has a radio frequencies and callisgins to that offmap unit. On map mortar peices are to be considered from somewhere else, they might as well be from mars as it was in real life.

There has always been some major confusion re: mortars which stems from people not understanding how mortars work and or mixing up how mortars sometimes operate in the modern world as compared to WW2.

A mortar crew can't just move around the map and then decide to stop here and start pumping out indirect fire right away. IF requires an FO and an FDC. (BTW there was no FDC section in company mortars though they would cobble one together providing the platoon was all in one place and they had comms with an FO, all of this required forward planning.) You are not getting these assets when you buy an individual mortar. And company mortars in WW2 did not have radios. They would run wire from their static position up to the FO position (doing any of this on the map after relocating is outside the scop of your typical battle) This is why you can only shoot mortars IF at TRPs and whatnot if you haven't moved or if you have LOS to the HQ which is guiding in fire via a technique called direct alignment.

We went around a hell of a lot re: mortars in testing and had several real mortar maggots involved in comming up with a workable solution since we don't model FDCs on the map.

What this means is that you have to plan your mortar postions, scheme of manuever and mortar fires with some forethought just as you would for real. And it is adviseable not to buy on map 81s and also 81 FOs. That's a redundant waste. If you have already pruchased off map 81s and you still feel the need for on map mortars then go with 60mm, they're at least more mobile.

Hope that helps...

Los

[Levine]

Los,

I'm glad you got into this discussion, and thanks for the detailed reply. Admittedly, my mortar education wasn't acquired during W.W.II. I still think, though, that a spotter can give verbal directions to a mortar that in 50 feet behind him, even if they're not from the same organic unit. On the other hand, it is the GERMAN army

I tried using "direct alignment" last night, after getting a hint of it from the other responses. I noticed that the line of fire still says "view blocked" although the mortar DOES eventually shoot to area designated. However, without LOS (but WITH platoon leader directions) all fire is just "area fire", specific targets can't be set, and ambushes can't be placed. Returning to a previous point, the leader should be able to zero the mortar behind him on a target quite quickly, with little wasted ammo, and can operate as its eyes for ambushes.

What about the FO? Don't you agree that they're unrealistically easy to spot?

I glad we can discuss such issues of fine realism. It says a lot about the quality of this game, sorry, simulation.

[Los]

RE: The spotter giving instruction to someone behind him (50') yes that's technically possible, (Direct Lay).

I think there's lots of little things that could be tweaked on the subject but it's all lines of code and there agree priorities to be maintained in the work to be done on this product.

Certainly tooling around a bit with the current product gives one a better understanding of what can and can't be done and then you can plan your operations accordingly. Without that understanding of eth nuances, which comes from playing a lot it can be easy to become frustrated.

RE Spotters. I have felt at times that they are seen and killed a tad too easily, almost as if the AI considers spotter exposure (When calling in rounds) to be similar to a rifle squad shooting at you, though I can't confirm this. I take great care with them just in case.

Los

[Guest Michael emrys]

I have occasionally wondered if the FOs in CM don't all have big flashing neon signs proclaiming something like HERE I AM! But I am getting better at protecting them. Keeping them off hilltops and well back inside the tree line helps. Remember, they only have to barely be able to spot their target in order to be effective. Once the shells start falling, you are free to move them completely out of sight without any loss of accuracy (a trifle unrealistic that, but not enough to worry over).

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Popper]

I usually just hunt out good spotting areas with rifle squads before placing my fo someplace. Spotter patches that have worked for me are places with sight blocked by trees, buildings, or defilade. Since off board is area fire anyway, I just try to put the spotting round someplace close to the target rather than requiring LOS directly to it.

Excellent example of this is in the scenario "All or Nothing". The 88 Flak gun on the other side of the ridge can be taken out by 5.5" offboard. All you have to do is place your spot between the gun and the adjacent building. There is a spot for your spotter on the right side of the ridge that nicely blocks los from both the 88 and the MG42 in the adjacent building. The net result is that you can send down hellfire without being fired upon.

[spcwrnglr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACTOR:

Pucker - I use the hide order until I am ready to use the spotter to call down fire on my enemy. Seems to work well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget to use the most commonly forgotten about command "sneak." I run my spotters to the general vicinity of wherever they need to be (while they're out of LOS of enemy of course) and "sneak" them into the top floor of houses on hills. I haven't had fire drawn on them yet.

2 minutes later, God (my artillery), strikes down the enemy with a vengeance.

[Levine]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

. Keeping them off hilltops and well back inside the tree line helps. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for all of your comments about concealment, which are very useful not only to spotters, but to any force. However, the concerns about spotters remain:

1. Even when in enemy LOS, spotters should be very difficult to be identified as such. Panzer man reports a case in which they were spotted from over 1000m away. Remember that we talk about two soldiers, wearing camo, often hiding. If at all identified, they should appear as "infantry?" for the most part, IMHO.

2. When identified, they receive amazingly high priority from the enemy, which literally concentrates all fire on them, including AT guns and what not. While this is show how more understandable, it is realistic that a soldier abandon fire towards all MG, half-tracks, platoon leaders and so on around him? I suggest that the priority for elimination would be SLIGHTLY reduced

[Los]

Levine I'm in a rush and willa ddress teh first part of your question later but as to the second part, FO/FIST type targets always received the higghest priority. Artillery is the biggest killer on the battlefield, (At least in real life) prevention of which is the biggest priority. It's still pretty much that way today even in modern combat, destroy FIST vehicles, EW vehicles and ADA platforms at once as soon as they are identified.

Los

[Airborne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

Artillery is the biggest killer on the battlefield, (At least in real life) prevention of which is the biggest priority. It's still pretty much that way today even in modern combat, destroy FIST vehicles, EW vehicles and ADA platforms at once as soon as they are identified.

Los<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I concur here. As a (modern) AT section leader, we were trained to engage ADA assets first , then command vehicles , armor , etc.

Our TOW mounts were jeeps (pre HUMVEE) and had to constantly move positions least we incurred the mightly wrath of enemy (Soviet) artillery....One or two rounds from one firing position and then "unass the AO"....

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Levine:

1. How can infantry in fox holes tell the difference between enemy rifle squad and spotters crawling behind a hill top 150m away?

2. What solider in the world would turn their backs to three sources of constant fire just to eliminate a fourth force, which is substantially small and doesn't even fire as them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at it this way: you're in a foxhole, exchanging fire with some enemy soldiers while eating a chocolate bar; you spot a couple of guys sneaking in the open with what looks like some kind of pipe, and maybe a box or two. What do you do?

1) You think: aw heck, those guys must be going to fix some plumbing or a stovepipe to cook some hamburgers in a nearby abandoned house, so I might as well concentrate on the guys firing at me . If I spot mortar shells coming down, I'll know where they came from.

2) You think: Oh, oh, these guys look like a mortar squad, and if I'm right and if I don't neutralize them within the next couple of minutes,I'm gonna be chewing on incoming mortar rounds and plucking shrapnel out of my hide .You shoot at them.

Make your choice, soldiers who survived the war usually chose option 2.

Henri

[Hiram Sedai]

This is where I like the misidentifying thing that CM does where last night I identified some guy as "crew" when the scenario had no vehicles. I tend to force my people to target single targets because they might be important -->Command/Arty spotters. Although...in reality, (U.S. Army) we would shoot at what we thought we could hit until told to do otherwise.

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-Work Hard

-Type Fast

-Save Often

[Jager 7]

Just an oberservation -- get it?

Seriously, it's not hard to spot an FO. It's especially not hard to spot one that has been lax about his security. Just look for the radio antenna of his RTO, or a glint of glass in the sun, that would be his binoculars..."Implements of command" were what the Japanese in WWII called these items and targeted them aggressively...with much success. Do I think CM should be able to spot an Arty Spotter from 1K meters?...no. Yet they are a high priority target for everyone and once spotted had best be moved..if they survive.

Another thing to look at if you are playing in a PBEM game is where might your opponent put his FO. If you can get a handle on that you might just be able to flush that pesky FO or nail him. There are only so may really good Observation Posts in any one scenario.

Out here....

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When the situation is obscure....attack!

CGen. Heinz Guderian

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

Look at it this way: you're in a foxhole, exchanging fire with some enemy soldiers while eating a chocolate bar; you spot a couple of guys sneaking in the open with what looks like some kind of pipe, and maybe a box or two. What do you do?

1) You think: aw heck, those guys must be going to fix some plumbing or a stovepipe to cook some hamburgers in a nearby abandoned house, so I might as well concentrate on the guys firing at me . If I spot mortar shells coming down, I'll know where they came from.

2) You think: Oh, oh, these guys look like a mortar squad, and if I'm right and if I don't neutralize them within the next couple of minutes,I'm gonna be chewing on incoming mortar rounds and plucking shrapnel out of my hide .You shoot at them.

Make your choice, soldiers who survived the war usually chose option 2.

Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, Henri, I hate to be the one to break it to you since you were on such a roll, but the man wasn't asking about mortar teams, but FOs.

Michael

[Jager 7]

I need to ammend something I posted above..."do I think an FO should be spotted at 1K meters in CM....No". I would like to clarify that. I'd say no, if the FO is in woods...in any other terrain and he moves at all I would say there should be a fair chance he gets spotted. 1000 meters in the game is a long way...in the real world it ain't all that far. You have to figure the other guy has binoculars too.

Out here...