'Can't stop now' by Aitken, review and AAR

[CMplayer]

Review and AAR of a scenario by Aitken.

Anyone who's worked at a day care center

knows how important it is to lay out and

furnish the rooms in a way that encourages

creative play, and fosters a sense of

security in the children. The sculpting of

living space reflects and influences how we

spend our time in that space. The same goes

for a CM map. Aitken's map in his scenario

'Can't stop now', together with the force

composition and objective, is tailor-made

to encourage a desperate, mobile fight which

devolves into many separate skirmishes all

occuring within a radius of just a very few

city blocks. It also discourages the kind of

stalemate which can arise in computer-

generated urban maps filled with rows of

large heavy buildings. This is my impression

after trying out the scenario double-blind

against Mensch in a 7minute/turn IP game.

What can I say? It was one of the scarier CM

games I've ever played. It reminded me of

descriptions of Dieppe, once off the beach,

where Canadians being hunted down in the

alleys and streets of a living town, turned

finally to make a final stand with their smg

and last 5 rounds from the basement window of

a Cafe, where snipers were beaten with pool

cues and knocked out of second story windows,

where firing lines were hastily formed in

backyards and gardens where children had

been playing not long before. This is the

sort of fight I had believed was missing from

the game, and I largely credit the simple,

but well thought-out map.

The following is an AAR, combined with

comments for the scenario designer and anyone

else who may be interested. Spoilers.

My objective, as the Germans, is to stop

British reinforcements attempting to pass a

bridge at a small French town. I have 2

platoons of crack FJ, each with a crack

Panzerschreck team. My default setup

has one platoon taking up position in the

graveyard of a Church, behind a stone wall,

and the other nearby along a tree-lined

street. Both positions offer decent cover

for falling back, and I resolve on a 'shoot

n scoot' type of delaying action. My flanks

are covered by extensive AP mines on either

side, and there are Daisy Chain mines on the

streets. I also have 4 75mm inf guns which

start out in my infantry line. I reflexively

move these farther back into the town, nearer

the bridge, figuring they will die too

quickly in the front line.

This brings up a history/realism question:

Can a gun in a hostile, occupied town be

considered to take care of its own local

security, if it is not near infantry?

Might a Frenchman, angry at seeing a Boche

gun digging into his petunia patch, and

knowing that the British are _almost there_,

round up a posse of neighbors and evict the

crew? In any case, I reposition the guns.

I also have two PzIVg's on the other side of

the river, covering the bridge. I decide to

let them wait there, and see how the fight

develops in the town before committing

them. This is an exit scenario, so the Brits

are supposed to attempt to bypass my

defenders, cross the bridge and exit on the

very road where my panzers are waiting, so I

like their positioning. Hit Go!

British armor is directly ahead of my FJs, on

the four roads leading into the town. They

are very close, but have to round a sort of

corner before the fight will really start. I

unhide my schrecks and hit Go. Mensch

obviously feels pressured by the 15 turn

game length, and the exit conditions. On my

right flank, he decides to make an end run

with 2 Cromwell VIIs on the road along the

river. They barrel along at full speed, and

turn the corner too late to stop for the

Daisy chain mines. Boom! And a few seconds

later the second tank is knocked out by a

Schreck. (grogs: what is the first shot hit

chance for an unsuppressed crack schreck team

at 60 meters? about 110%?)

On my left flank several tanks and halftracks

decide to move along the board edge rather

than advance along the road. I don't mind

because his vehicles will get stalled by a

little park with a duck pond in it and his

infantry will discover a lot of mines. (The

custom map discourages edge creeping). It

appears Mensch hasn't decided to dismount

his infantry and probe ahead first, so I rub

my hands with glee. Before long a big fight

develops in front of the church and several

tanks fall victim to schrecks and fausts.

After a few turns I am taking quite a lot of

fire from infantry, Churchill VI's,

Cromwells, Challengers and halftracks, and

start running men into the church in

preparation for withdrawing farther into the

town, and closer to the bridge.

Meanwhile, down by the river some British

tank crews, from the KO'd Cromwells, are

wandering about fraternizing with civilians.

That pisses off the hidden crew of a

75mm infantry gun because the French never

offered them wine and tea like that. Noticing

the French whispering to the Brits and

pointing in the direction of the gun, the

gun crew unhides and and gives them something

to think about.

My platoon nearer the river, dug in along the

tree-lined street, isn't seeing action

so I run their shreck up behind the church

and begin pulling the rest of the platoon

back to new positions, mostly in the

sparingly applied small heavy buildings,

deeper within the town. They have to run over

hedges and through backyards, and

occasionally come under fire from MGs on

haltracks and tanks up at the fight near the

church.

Back at the main center of action, the Church

is on fire! and at least one vehicle has

bypassed my infantry and is nosing along

ahead towards the bridge. Enemy infantry has

dismounted and I am retreating from the

church. The extra Schreck which I sent up has

gotten some more kills. I don't have time to

figure out exactly what is going on though,

given the time limit, but I am taking

casualties now. The fun initial duckshoot is

over. At least a squad is completely

disorganized, and one confused FJ tries to

run back into the burning church, perhaps to

assist wounded comrades. He is shot down at

the door. Still, I am convinced that the

enemy will not succeed in bypassing me, and

exiting any significant force to assist his

comrades in arms.

My 75mm guns are now all in the battle. One

of them unhides first when british infantry

enter a light building at about 10m distance

from the gun. They get into a duel in

which my gun comes out on top with some help

from another gun across the river. Two

Civilians, elderly, bail out of the house.

WTF were they still doing there? In any case

they don't have a house any more. More and

more British crews are showing up all

over the place, and as my 75mm guns succumb

to tank fire, I get crack or vet crews

as well. There is nowhere to run to, and FJ's

being what they are, several pistol fights

erupt in corners of the map between British

and German crews. I even send a squad of

infantry down to kill some of those damned

tankers near the river. Crack infantry

doesn't need to be in C&C, they function

quite nimbly on their own! Buildings are

collapsing in the center of town, and the

Brits, quite heroically, keep fighting in

the rubble.

At this point I advance my 2 tanks to where

they can see over the river and into the

town. This turns out to be decisive. Whatever

is left of the British armor quickly

succumbs, as they are taken completely by

surprise when fire starts coming in

from a new direction across the river. I blow

up a building which was hosting some

kind of British tank-crew reunion, and am

preparing to close assault another batch

of routed crews when I win by auto-surrender.

My opponent, Mensch, remains cheerful,

quipping through it all, and I have to admit

the game was more entertaining than most war

movies. He seemed to enjoy it for spectacle

value. I would have been cursing and

screaming if I had been subjected to that

treatment.

Allied Attacker 95 casualties (25KIA), 43

Captured, 2 mortars destroyed, 16 vehicles

KO, men okay 0, score 7

Axis Defender, 45 casualties (10 KIA), 3 guns

destroyed, men okay 61, score 93.

Allied surrender, Axis total victory.

The big question here is: Is this scenario

balanced? Was it really fair of me to move

my 75mm guns farther back into a hostile

town? This definitely increased their

lifespan. Perhaps making the gun crews

regular instead of crack/vet would give

the Brits a better chance. Also, if this

troop movement is so important, perhaps

the Brits would have some off board arty

available?

I think it is good that the FJs are crack,

because they need to do a lot of micromanaged

fast maneuvering, trying to be everywhere at

once and stall the brits. But perhaps the

Brits could get another platoon of infantry?

Or did Mensch just make a poor decision at

the beginning as to how to conduct the fight?

The point balance is British 1654, Axis 996.

regards,

--Rett

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[Panzer Leader]

Great AAR CMPlayer! I recently spanked Mrspkr in this scenario as the Germans. I sure wouldn't want to play as the Brits on this one, but it might be fn to try against the AI.

I would think it would be unbeatable against any competent german commander.

In my game I left all positions at default, and lost all the guns and most of the INF (broken or routed) pretty quick, but my to PZIVs stopped him COLD. The game ended with one HT making it halfway across the bridge and my two tanks hulldown at the bridge and slaughtering them as they came.

The map was beautiful, the anti-edge-creep screen was well thought out, I liked the quickness of it, but MAN it is just too hard as the British. They need either arty or something. Maybe a british paratroop platoon as reinforcement near the bridge around turn 10 - that would be cool!

It makes sense though: Aitkin is that type of Brit that likes to be whipped and abused.

[David Aitken]

• SPOILER WARNING •

Well, that was an AAR and a half. Thanks Rett!

I do think that mensch was a bit ill-advised in charging straight into town. I think this is realistic, as the British commander is charged with getting across the bridge ASAP, and he may feel he can just punch through, but he has to be wary about what stands in the way. Of course, there's no point in the scenario if the British simply can't win.

I'm no expert on artillery deployment, but I envision there being no artillery available, as this is not a planned attack. It is either not set up, or is employed elsewhere, specifically in the battle the British force is trying to join.

I think I may have given the Germans too much AT capability. I almost think the crack Fallschirmjåger could take out the tanks on their own, even without the Panzerfausts and satchel charges I gave them. The Panzerschrecks and especially the infantry guns are maybe overkill.

On the other hand, I think if the British commander sends his infantry out on foot, just in front of the tanks, he can flush out and engage the Germans, suppressing the AT guns whilst the tanks get into position. The British commander might think that he has no chance of defeating the Germans, and his only hope is speed, when in effect if he does engage he will most likely prevail.

Expect v1.02 shortly.

[mensch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The big question here is: Is this scenario

balanced? Was it really fair of me to move

my 75mm guns farther back into a hostile

town? This definitely increased their

lifespan. Perhaps making the gun crews

regular instead of crack/vet would give

the Brits a better chance. Also, if this

troop movement is so important, perhaps

the Brits would have some off board arty

available?

I think it is good that the FJs are crack,

because they need to do a lot of micromanaged

fast maneuvering, trying to be everywhere at

once and stall the brits. But perhaps the

Brits could get another platoon of infantry?

Or did Mensch just make a poor decision at

the beginning as to how to conduct the fight?

The point balance is British 1654, Axis 996.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it was quite fun, not only did I feel pressured by the 15 round limit we also had a 4 minute time limit on order *yikes*

still actually I though not taking the main road but skirting right of it.

On the second turn I saw foxholes but no troops and changed my orders to go even further away from it to avoid fighting (orders were to not engage and get accross that bridge).. so I follow orders. Then the fireworks start.

as mentioned I used two Challangers to scout on the left on Fast orders then to go into hunt. they made it somewhere between Fast and Hunt but all I heard was the tracks being ripped off my tanks as they rushed over mines and one shot one kill sounds of zooks and gun fire.

On my right Fausts and Shreck rounds are flying like a ticker tape parade and then IG start opening up. on one round alone I loose 3 HT'S and 3 Tanks.

So.. I dismount my guys from existing HT's and put my tanks on Hunt or stand and fire.. the IG that are found I target with everything I got.. but to no avail.. that IG was Crack and the conversation most likely went like this.

"LOAD!"

"loaded!!"

"what so fast?"

"yes sir!"

"right fir.."

*booom*

"Gott'em!!"

"hey, I didn't finish saying fir..."

*boom"

"another one burning!! - woot!"

*crew does a victory dance*

"now I'm the commander here and when I say fir..."

*boom*

"woot! another one burning!"

"now cut that out! I'm commander here and ..say.. good shooting"

anyhow thats pretty much like it even my churchhills could not kill the damn thing for turns on end, and with that 75mm gun firing about 20 rounds a second as it felt I was in a bind.

Well I will say its fun, yes. Hard..er for the British yes.

suggestions? well ok.. against crack troops I would almost suggest a 3:1 ratio. in the tank department in this game I have more then enough.. for infantry.. two regular Platoons against two CRACK FJ platoons maxed out with Panzerfausts and Demolition charges (I thought engineers only got those?) it was tough. those Crack Zooks have a hit ratio of like said above 110% at 150m!

I would ask two more people to play this with the same settings CMplayer and I had 4 minute limit on orders and go at it on TCP/IP.. I would be interested in the results.

[David Aitken]

• SPOILER WARNING •

When I looked again at the force makeup, I was amazed that it's so hard for the British. Eight tanks, eight halftracks, and two platoons of infantry, against two enemy platoons with AT support and two tanks. Of course, the time limit is a large factor, and that's how it's supposed to be.

As for your comments about the brief, mensch (this seems to be a hot topic for you just now) , I didn't tell the British commander not to engage, just not to hang around and try to finish off the Germans. In other words, little more than anyone who understands an Exit scenario already knows.

The British actually have a huge advantage, because much of the German points are used up on mines. The German tanks are only regular mark IV's, so they ought not to be a major problem. The only issue, as I've said, is that the Germans have a huge AT capability. Six squads with two Panzerfausts and two demo charges each, and four infantry guns (two crack and two veteran).

When I first issued the scenario someone suggested that RCL's would be more realistic than IG's. They also thought the mark IV's were out of place, but that was intentional. What I've done is remove the IG's, and replace the Panzerschrecks with RCL's, putting more emphasis on the infantry's AT capabilities, and also increasing the scope for the British to suppress the infantry and therefore their AT capability as well.

The scenario would be easy for the British without such a strict time limit, so it's a fine balance. The Germans have a 'shock' capability, ie. large firepower amongst few units, which wouldn't be so effective if the British weren't rushing. By the same token, it would be very different the second time around.

I think I'm developing an interest in 'concept' scenarios, not the type that you'll want to play over and over again, but quite spectacular the first time around. After all, no-one gets the chance to replay history.

Thanks all for your comments.

[Gpig]

SPOILERS!!!

Ok!

Lacking a human opponent, I grabbed this scenario (as soon as I read the AAR, avove) and commenced to battle it out with the A.I..

I let the computer set itself up, and I chose the Brits. Normal force balance, and unadjusted experience.

I considered myself to have a slight advantage however, having read the AAR above.

This was still a tough fight. My previous knowledge gleaned from the AAR helped only with having forknowledge of the PzIVs.

I moved out with infantry dismounted, right through the center of town. (One platoon left of the church, and one platoon to the right, through the graveyard). I had the church covered by massed tank LOS, so I was not too worried about it. Then I proceeded to advance, halftracks and infantry and armor all leapfrogging one another. Time was definitly a factor. Often making me feel like I was dogging it.

First thing, I lose a Vet Cromwell to AT mines while rolling through someones back yard. Then, I flush a FJ squad out of a nearby building and my second Cromwell gives it to 'em hard.

Next turn, the battle blows sky high! Suddenly, the tracks get blown off another Cromwell on the center road. Seconds later, one of my lead churchills gets penetrated, but NO EFFECT!

My infantry are engaged with FJ squads on the left side of the map. No contact on the right flank yet. Halftracks are adding GREAT suppresive support for my leapfrogging infantry.

Next turn, I lose two tanks to AT rounds. Coming from where, I don't know.

Tank contact across the river. My Vet Cromwell has a nice tank duel with one PzIV, taking him out with his thrid shot. Another PzIV (just a sound contact) takes him out, a second later.

Next turn, my challenger and Churchill on the far right flank (behind the graveyard wall) spot the second PxIV and take him out in a tag team effort.

By know my infantry is past the church and we've identified some Gun? positions. I lose a couple of halftracks, and one of my churchills throws a track going through some trees.

One of the enemy gun positions goes down! Didn't see who got him. The gun positions are very hard to hit. Reverse slope on the near river bank. (the computer set them well.) The second RCL takes out another of my tanks! ARRRGH! I've got about 8 lines of incoming fire aimed at him, but the FJ gun keeps a popping! (At the end of the battle, I count 12 HE shell craters in the opposite river bank. Near misses, all of them whistling over the FJ crew's heads.)

The last of the FJ infantry falls under massed fire. It had become apparent that the A.I. had set up entirely on the my left. So I swung my right platoon over, with all their supporting tracks and tanks (2), and gave them a right hook to the jaw. The last house goes up in flames, FJ squad runs out and is cut to pieces.

Turn 8 and the enemy RCL surrenders. Lucky me. Feeling cocky, I try to charge an FJ HQ (in a foxhole at roadside) with a squad of brits. The HQ cuts down my entire squad!. OUCH!. The HQ is cut down seconds later by a halftrack gunner.

Now the way is clear. I start to race my infantry for the bridgehead. Halftracks start moving fast to provide transport to the exit zones. I've only got 2 challengers left fully operational. One churchill and one commet, both immobile. The rest of my armor, KAPUT! (I noticed that the challengers had a VERY SMALL HE load out, if ANY. I could have used some more 75mm HE.)

Turn 11. The Germans surrender.

Axis surrender, Draw

Allied attacker:

33 casualties (8 KIA)

6 veh. KO'd

Men OK: 107

Score 51

Axis Defender

68 Casualties (21 KIA)

18 captured

2 guns destroyed

2 vehicles KO'd

Men OK, 0

Score 49

Despite the draw, I considered this a win for the Brits. I would have been able to get 2 tanks across the river, plus two understrength platoons (and support). The churchill and Commet with the thrown tracks would soon be on their way again, also. I also still had 5 minutes to reach the exit zones. The remaining FJ infantry (one and a half squads), were hiding on the near river bank and posed no serious threat.

Good battle! It was intense. Does the briefing say anything about mines? Those FJ are a tough bunch. Crack is a good level for them. It was not easy, but I went at a MOVE with my armor, and leapfrogged with my infantry and it resulted in constant armored support for my boys. Plenty of targets to shoot at. Even across town, what with the crisscrossing LOS. Good one, David.

Gpig.

[Bog]

Wow, I've been trying not to read any of this. David, you mind sending a copy my way at user853818@aol.com

Thanks.

[David Aitken]

Bog, scenario sent. Gpig, thanks for your report.

• SPOILER WARNING •

I assume you got v1.02, since you mention RCL's. In the original version the Germans were allowed to set up on both sides of the river, which meant that they could pick off the British tanks from the flank, which is what happened to one of the guys who tried it against the AI. I've been meaning to change that for a while, but I only did it shortly before I changed the German AT arragements.

I have a feeling I deliberately gave the Challengers little HE. It encourages correct employment of the different kinds of tanks, although maybe that's not appropriate in this kind of battle.

I have a mind to substitute the Churchills for close-support versions. I just get the feeling that I'll cross the line and suddenly the whole thing will swing against the Germans.

[Gpig]

SPOILERS!!!

Hey David.

The HE load for the Challengers could be a "bit" higher. Maybe at least 5 more rounds or somthing. But I can imagine it remaining low if we think about the overall mission. (Those Challengers, and thier AT ability, are desperately needed across the river!) The Churchills alone, can be relied apon for infantry support (as mine did an admirable job).

I would be careful about changing it too much. Against the A.I. it's winnable. Against a human opponent, it would be VERY tough, but it is still winnable. I think that you're right, that adding a Croc/AVRE type tank would shift the balance be a bit too much in favor of the Brits. That being said . . . playing against a competent human Axis opponent, I'd surely give my left nut for one of those Crocs.

Gpig

[MrSpkr]

SPOILERS

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Sancho and I played this scenario, and I was fool enough to take the British. A few observations:

The Germans in town are not too bad IF you dismount infantry and use them to pin down and destroy the german guns. The problem is that (1) you can't just rush by because you are pinned in by the mines and by a wall around the church in the center of the board. The Wall necessitates your neutralizing German troops across the board so your halftrack/carriers (can't remember which it is and I am typing this from work) can get through to the key bridge.

(2) The Mark IV's aren't a big deal UNLESS you are running out of time (as I was) and see no alternative but to rush everything across the bridge in hopes of getting a few guys off the board. When I tried that, I had already capped one MkIV, but the other one took out three tanks in one turn. I didn't really have much choice because it was turn 13 and I had to move them to get to the exit point.

I think the time factor combined with very good initial Axis anti-tank forces makes this an extremely difficult scenario to win as the British. I would suggest one of three changes:

Either (1) extend the scenario to twenty turns (which gives the British a bit of time to neutralize the tank defenses); or

(2) change the exit point by extending the road straight off the map edge from the bridge (with no turns) -- this would shorten the drive time required by about 2 turns; or

(3) break up that wall around the church so that halftrack/carriers can get through.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Gpig]

MrSpkr wrote:

Either (1) extend the scenario to twenty turns (which gives the British a bit of time to neutralize the tank defenses); or

(2) change the exit point by extending the road straight off the map edge from the bridge (with no turns) -- this would shorten the drive time required by about 2 turns.

(3) break up that wall around the church so that halftrack/carriers can get through.

Howdy

I could agree with extending the length a tad, and with changing the exit zone location. But as to changing the wall, I think would be better to keep it. There should remain some terrain difficulties to deal with.

I DO think it's winnable as the Brits, but you've got to go just a tad more careful. )f course, I was playing the A.I. . . .

Maybe if you hucked in a Wasp and an understrength British engineer platoon?

We could be making suggs all day long, too.

I still liked it very much. I'm now looking for someone to play me TCP/IP. I'll be the Brits.

Gpig

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gpig:

I still liked it very much. I'm now looking for someone to play me TCP/IP. I'll be the Brits.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drop me a line if you'd like to play it

TCP/IP. I'd like to try the new version,

and I love hearing that chunky clang

when a tank gets hit.

--Rett

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]