Herr Kruger Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Within a German battalion in WWII, how are the companies numbered? Letters or numbers? And what about platoons within a company? Some examples would b helpful. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Originally posted by Herr Kruger: Within a German battalion in WWII, how are the companies numbered? Letters or numbers? And what about platoons within a company? Some examples would b helpful. Thanks! Companies are numbered, typically I Battailon 1-4 Company II Battailon 5-8 Company III Battailon 9-12 Company Supporting companies numbered as necessary (regimental level) - ie pioneer company, AT company, FlaK company, etc., starting with 13 Platoons numbered with arabic numerals - 1 Zug, 2 Zug, 3 Zug - within each company, I believe (unlike British/Canadian platoons, who were numbered successively in each company). So 1 Kompanie - 1,2,3 Zug 2 Kompanie - 1,2,3 Zug etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Just to add to what Mike already said: 4., 8. and 12. Kompanie were the heavy companies (81mm mortars and HMGs) 13. Kompanie was AT, 14. Kompanie was Infantry-gun. In some regiments the Staff company would be numbered 15.Kompanie Pionier and Flak Kompanies on regimental level were not standard, AFAIK. Pioniere were grouped in a divisional Pionierbatallion, and Flak was either there or not, depending on the division, so I do not think that they would be a standard 15./16. Kompanie. Additionally there would be a regimental band, and a supply column. All this can be found here, if you can read German. I can really not praise Lexikon der Wehrmacht enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 ...and to add further on the topic of numbering, Germans numbered their units alternating Arabic and Latin numbers. Starting from platoon with Latin, i.e. I Zug 1. Kompanie I Bataillon 1. Regiment (Then Brigade, Division, Korps(Gen.Kdo.) and Armee(AOK), finishing with Armeegruppe that used Latin lettering (A, B, etc)) The dot after a number (1.) signifies the unit was a unit considered capable of independent action. Companies, Regiments and Divisions were such, whereas platoon and battalion were considered subdivisions of a higher unit and not units themselves. The exception being independent (usually divisional) battalions. These battalions usually used Arabic numbers with a dot, just like Regiments, sidestepping the normal hierarchy. On a tactical map or in an order, any unit would be referred to as part of the next independent unit. Thus, 1./1. means 1st company of 1st regiment. That it is also part of I bataillon goes without saying. If there was risk of confusion, the unit abbreviation would be written out. Abbreviations normally used Arm-Unit-Number order (e.g: P[anzer].D[ivision] 1.) Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Ah yes, gruppen were numbered with Arabic number and a dot... and platoon hq was not considered a gruppe but simply a collection of specialists referred to as Stab. Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 Thanks, guys! Where do you learn this stuff? And I only speak and read a little bit of German. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Andreas and Dandelion cheat - they only speak and read a little bit of English 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: Andreas and Dandelion cheat - they only speak and read a little bit of English Me fail English? That's unpossible. Another little tidbit, it is possible that Zuege and Gruppen were also referred to not by numbers, but by the name of the commander, in official documents, e.g. KTBs. Tommy, are you sure that Zugfuehrer and their water-carriers would be referred to as 'Stab'? That is the first time I hear that. I think the lowest level at which an HQ becomes a 'Stab' is battalion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 It would indeed appear that regardless of the tenacity of my endeavours, I simply cannot get away with simplifications on this forum. You are of course right Andreas. The Zugführer with retinue did not compose a Stab as such. The Stab designation will normally indicate a leadership function combining several specialist functions (intelligence, planning, logistics). Such a unit is indeed found at Bataillon level at the lowest. Indeed, mean we formally trained Stabsoffizieren, we find them only at divisional level and up. Thus, formally, I have been caught in err. My defence is thus. The quest for a formal designation for the unit containing the Zugführer yielded no results at all, a regrettable state of affaires most probably attributable to the fact that it was not a unit. Be they water carriers, funkers, platoon medics or deputy Zugführers, they seem all to have lacked the solace of a unit designation. Retreat being as inconceivable a notion as always, I made a perhaps slightly daring detour to contemporary army jargon, where some comfort was indeed to be had. Riflemen appears to have had, with predictable rifleman insolence, the bad habit of designating anybody serving in any hq function as serving at "Stab". With - when referring to "other ranks" such as perhaps water carriers - the implicit meaning of being shirkers. All in the same tradition as the calling of any personnel serving in supply functions as a/the "Qu". The wickedness of which will become all the more obvious to Jon - and all you other heathen Anglo-Saxons who have since your exodus so decadently forgotten your original native Saxon and 'developed' this awkward, imprecise and highly undisciplined German dialect we are now communicating in - when reflecting the similarity of sound between spoken Qu and Kuh (cow). Real Qu's were also only to be found at divisional level and up. No pun intended. And so I wrote the dot dot dot and used "referred to as" rather than "called" or "designated", hoping the very obscurity and elusiveness of English would veil my trickeries. Alas, a German caught me at it. The defence rests its case (I love that phrase). How parsimonious, to not issue umlauts in London. No wonder ze English can't say ü... Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Dandelion: How parsimonious, to not issue umlauts in London. No wonder ze English can't say ü... Well, I have Umlaute galore on my Mac at home, but the shoddy piece of crap produced by a failed company (Compaq) in front of me has so far resisted my efforts to draw the secret of Umlaut writing out of it. Maybe I have to start using a needle on its HDD. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Äs Ï sït hërë typïng ön my compäq, Ï fïnd Ï hävë nö tröüblë prödücïng ümläüts. Ït's sö müch fün Ï jüst cän't stöp mysëlf! What can this mean? An English speaker, using the 'lauts, and a German speaker without? Is it a sign? Perhaps a conspiracy. Quick! Get your tinfoil-hats! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 ßurely, you mean letß get our Pickelhauben? Because My Haube, it has a Pickel, A Pickel has my Haube. And had it not a Pickel, it would not be my Haube. Jon, where lies Venus? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Why, 53 miles east of my current location, of course! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The dot after a number (1.) signifies the unit was a unit considered capable of independent action. Companies, Regiments and Divisions were such, whereas platoon and battalion were considered subdivisions of a higher unit and not units themselves. Interesting, never heard that. However, the dot (1.) has the same function in German as the "st", "nd" or "rd" (as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd) in English usually, so the distinction of independent/co-dependent units would seem to rely on the number (arabic/roman) rather than the dot if you ask me. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Overlooked that one - I am with Martin on the '.' issue, I think it is overcomplicating matters considerably, and grammar is the more likely explanation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Could be. I interpreted it as the dot replacing the imperial circle for Stammeinheiten, with the square simply falling out of use. Could be that both fell out of use and appearance of the dot in WWII is simply grammar. /D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Zugtrupp. Its apparently called Zugtrupp. The infantry platoon hq squad I mean. /D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by Dandelion: Zugtrupp. Its apparently called Zugtrupp. The infantry platoon hq squad I mean. /D Says who? Even a Germangrog must present his proofs to the class... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 The K.St.N. list it as such. The Zugführer himself is always listed separately. Infantry platoon hq, K.St.N.131c (early type, there are more than 24 types). 4 people. Führer des Zugtrupps und stellv.Zg.Führ, 3 Melders. Melders have carbines, squadleader only pistol (later issued smg). Airborne platoon hq, K.St.N.131c (LL). 4 people. Führer des Zugtrupps und stellv.Zugführer, 3 Melder. All issued carbines. Panzergrenadier platoon hq, K.St.N.1114. 4 people. Squadleader (again also deputy platoon CO), two Melders of which one motorcycle trained (and borne) and one vehicle driver (with vehicle). Motorised infantry platoon hq (of motorised divisions, not Panzer divisions), K.St.N.138c. 6 people. The squadleader, 4 melders (one m/c) and a Krankenträger. K.St.N.132d, Gebirgsjäger Zugtrupp lists the Führer des Zugtrupps (auch stellv. Zg.F.) and 5 melders and a sanitätssoldat. Melders have carbines, officers pistols and smg's. The medic has only a pistol. And so on. There are plenty variations. E.g. the Gebirgsjägerpionierzug Zugtrupp list 8 people: Tz.b.V., Schirrmeister, 4 Melder, Pferdewärter, Sanitätssoldat. The "extra" (not squad organic) lmg's, antitank weaponry and such is listed as "gerät ohne personal". These pieces are usually equipping the Zugtrupps in CMBO, or issued as separate weapon teams (PzSchr). Which is a reasonable solution I think. Incidentally, the "Stab" of a company is actually called Kompanietrupp. All of this easily obtainable via the Bundesarchiv, and I would guess also via the USNA and the Public Record Office in Bath. I'd give you the microfilm number (it appears that at least the BA and NA uses the same numbers), but I didn't write it down when I obtained the files myself some ten years ago, and back then it wasn't stamped on the copies. Anyway, should be no problem even without it. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 You're free to go... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: You're free to go... Yes, but only after correcting his sig line ("...Siegreichen..."). In the defense of Andreas I have to state that my WW2-vet TA100 telex-machine at the Bundeswehr had no Umlaute, and thus any Umlaut was written as on Andreas' Compaq. In fact, even on typewriters with Umlauten the plt used the ae/oe/ue/sz version. Grusz Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: You're free to go... Yes, but only after correcting his sig line ("...Siegreichen..."). In the defense of Andreas I have to state that my WW2-vet TA100 telex-machine at the Bundeswehr had no Umlaute, and thus any Umlaut was written as on Andreas' Compaq. So I guess the ae/oe/ue/sz version is pretty historic. Grusz Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Steht was neues drin, nur dir zuliebe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Steht was neues drin, nur dir zuliebe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Speaking unit designations, does anybody know of a list of official UK abbreviations for unit names? I understand there was a specific official way to abbreviate the various kilometerlong names of British and Canadian units. Also, at the Imperial War Museum there was a list of the geographical recruiting areas of British units. Anybody know of any such for British, Canadian and US units published on the internet? Cheerio D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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