Michael Dorosh Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Does anyone have this book? Is it very relevant to learning abuot the Eastern Front? I tried to locate it in the local library but it was signed out. I am curious about a reference I found to it elsewhere - a pseudo-scholar has cited pp. 390-391, 412 as mentioning the history of "panzer division" (sic) Grossdeutschland. His history is wrong though, so I am wondering if someone can provide me the specific quotes on these pages dealing with GD? I would like to know if the book, or my new friend, is the one in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Michael, If you are determined to get this book might I suggest trying abe books (www.abebooks.com)? Just type 'Hitler's Legions' in the title search, and you should find a number of bookstores that are selling them. I found a few, including a 1st edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 abe is awesome, but I do not want this book, especially if its history is as poor as I suspect. I was hoping someone might be able to provide the relevant quotes for me. I will track it down at the library eventually. Thanks for the tip - a friend of mine swears by abe.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freaky ol'man w/very long wings Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Dorosh, if you please would like to check my post of a week or so back I have one or two titles there, you may want to procure. I also posted a reply to your Kharkov question refering you to some titles and again to check for my postings. One of this books subject is a guide to the panzer legions in the German army. There is also two French Historians who may be of help in the subject of ss divisions, Jean Mabire and Eric Lefevre. This for reference, thanks. (Flap! Flap! Flies back to his post...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Originally posted by freaky ol'man w/very long wings: There is also two French Historians who may be of help in the subject of ss divisions, Jean Mabire and Eric Lefevre. This for reference, thanks. I don't know Eric Lefevre but be careful with Jean Mabire: this guy is more a ss-stuff-idolatric-maniac than an historian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by freaky ol'man w/very long wings: Dorosh, if you please would like to check my post of a week or so back I have one or two titles there, you may want to procure. I also posted a reply to your Kharkov question refering you to some titles and again to check for my postings. One of this books subject is a guide to the panzer legions in the German army. There is also two French Historians who may be of help in the subject of ss divisions, Jean Mabire and Eric Lefevre. This for reference, thanks. (Flap! Flap! Flies back to his post...)GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I don't see how I can be any more clear on this. I do NOT want to read Mitcham's book, I want to see the very specific quotes I mentioned on the pages indicated. Grossdeutschland was NOT an SS unit! I simply wanted to see if he has his facts correct re: the dates of the raising of the regiment to divisional status, and whether or not he calls them a "panzer division", since they never were in name (though in practice they were). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: ... Grossdeutschland was NOT an SS unit! ... Are you sure about that? Ambrose refers to them as being SS several times. Apparently 3rd SS-GD Pz Regt was equipped with Panthers mounting the 88mm KwK L70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 The Soviet General Staff's study on Kursk has GD down as a Waffen-SS unit. Must be the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Far be it from me to argue with the great Australian war philosopher Stephen Ambrose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Far be it from me to argue with the great Australian war philosopher Stephen Ambrose! Exactly. Don't let it happen again. Now go to your room and play three QBs against the AI as punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDuke Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Grossdeutschland were an Army formation, although an elite one. It started life as a motorised infantry regiment during the french campaign of 1940. It was expanded into a motorised infantry division in 1942 and in may 1943 was upgraded to a Panzergrenadier Division. It did fight at Kursk in the 48th Panzer Corp, in the same southern thrust as the SS Panzer Corp containing LSSAH, DR and T division. In December 1944, the divsion was ordered to form the Grossdeutschland Panzer Corps with the Brandenburg Panzergrenadier division. It was an Army formation, although it did evolve in much the same way as the leading SS formations did in growing from a regiment to a divison etc, and by being known by it's name more than any numerical designation. It may be this that causes some confusion. Finally, wherever, I've found the names of it's commanders, they've held Heer ranks rather than the SS versions. The unit did have it's own distinctive insignia but it wasn't SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by IronDuke: Grossdeutschland were an Army formation, although an elite one. It started life as a motorised infantry regiment during the french campaign of 1940. It was expanded into a motorised infantry division in 1942 and in may 1943 was upgraded to a Panzergrenadier Division. It did fight at Kursk in the 48th Panzer Corp, in the same southern thrust as the SS Panzer Corp containing LSSAH, DR and T division. In December 1944, the divsion was ordered to form the Grossdeutschland Panzer Corps with the Brandenburg Panzergrenadier division. It was an Army formation, although it did evolve in much the same way as the leading SS formations did in growing from a regiment to a divison etc, and by being known by it's name more than any numerical designation. It may be this that causes some confusion. Finally, wherever, I've found the names of it's commanders, they've held Heer ranks rather than the SS versions. The unit did have it's own distinctive insignia but it wasn't SS.Dude, check my sig - and my website devoted to the history of the GD. You're preaching to the choir here. Really, all I want to know is if anyone can look at the pages I've indicated in Mitcham's book and tell me what they say. I don't need a lecture on the history of the GD or the SS or the STD! I want to know if Mitcham got it right or wrong. REally, really, really, that's all I want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwirry Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 I'm sure Iron Duke was referring to the posts above yours where GD is being called an SS unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Jwirry: I'm sure Iron Duke was referring to the posts above yours where GD is being called an SS unit.I don't doubt it, and I appreciate the good intentions. Now, does anyone own Mitcham's book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Hiram Sedai Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 It must be disconcerting to have the ego the size of Antarctica and the intellect the size of North America while not getting what you want. Perhaps there is balance in the universe after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: It must be disconcerting to have the ego the size of Antarctica and the intellect the size of North America while not getting what you want. Perhaps there is balance in the universe after all.I'll get it next time at the library; thanks for the good wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 I have the book.I am no going to quote the whole passage .The author does not say the unit was an SS formation .The book states that it was an elite unit with voluntiers from all of germany . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 The auhor states the unit became a divison in may of 1942 and it became a panzer divison in the winer of 1943-1944 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Interesting, thanks Hannibal. Panzer Division is inaccurate - they were equipped as one, but were never designated as such. And their conversion to tanks and panzergrenadiers was in the summer of 1943. Thanks again, truly appreciated. Let me know how I can repay you. [ July 18, 2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by Hannibal: I have the book.I am no going to quote the whole passage .The author does not say the unit was an SS formation .The book states that it was an elite unit with voluntiers from all of germany .Yeah, "volunteers"... I think "volunteering" into GrossD was described in "Forgotten Soldier"... It was something like: "Ok - you have just volunteered!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 19, 2002 Author Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by killmore: Yeah, "volunteers"... I think "volunteering" into GrossD was described in "Forgotten Soldier"... It was something like: "Ok - you have just volunteered!"Don't believe everything you read, killmore. Especially books like of dubious value like Forgotten Soldier. As you may or may not be aware, there is a lot of controversy surrounding that book - many even go so far as to say it is fiction. I don't really know one way or another, but there are enough errors of either fact or translation (or memory) to rule it out as a "bible" for understanding GD. Better to read Rudi Salvermoser's memoirs at www.feldgrau.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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