freaky ol'man w/very long wings

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Ok, I just wanted to rob you of your attention. I don't even know if this is new or old or what. I just was having this idea hoovering under my wings about an scenario that can be interesting or fun. The scenario would cover the aspect of retreat. Retreat as in the retreat of Soviet Armies during Barbarossa, or Germans during later years of the Russo-German conflicts. The Yelnia scenario already touches this subject but still only from the attack/defend view with previously prepared defense positions. What I'm thinking of, is of a full retreat scenario with forces in the move. By this meaning all kind of forces, ie, battle groups, supplies, staff, wounded, prisoners, etc. I'm aware that there are scenarios which provide exit zones and this kind of scenario comes to mind. In this scenario you also have to attack or defend but while being in the move and, god help, if you don't make it to the exit zone before that bottleneck gets corked! You may not make it with your full force intact but you should try. Paraphrasing the Yelnia scenario, there should be many gaps in your line so the enemy is pouring in from the least unexpected places. For that you have to defend on the move and maybe scrap from your supply troops, staff or even swamp the lightly wounded. If you have to attack, it will be more of a counterblow with a hastily organized battlegroup, reccon batallion, zealous commisars or die-hard T-26 tankers. The idea in this scenario is that you may count with no more than 1-3 tanks, guns or FO with a very limited supply of ammo. Like the Yelnia scenario for FO. As I mention you have to counterattack or defend, to try to seal those gaps. Maybe in this kind of scenario the enemy is not interested in your battlegroup as a threatening force but it's objective is to disrupt your line of retreat and in this way disestabilize your forces. So, here you will be waiting with a battery of AT guns with only one or two pieces, maybe a couple of "Ferdinands", waiting for the main thrust to materialize while a small band of partisans is breaking havock in your columns. Or when you are trying to gather as many straglers as you can muster, as in Yelnia Stare, to make a stand before Bobruisk while the Panzer spearheads had already crossed the Berezina. With this said, again, god help you if the convoys you are supposed to protect do not make it through that bottleneck which is about to close! We just have to remember that examples like this did occur often during the war in the east. I hope this will arouse the attention of those who are inclined to use the excelent scenario editor the game provide us with. ps. Myself I still don't have the chance to check the editor in my new cmbo. I'm mainly reading the forum and enjoying the havoc the new demo has produced!

...And still behave like if you are not there? Since you hit refresh how many times? Never mind the many hours for each download? Then after getting your special treat hit the withdraw or re-treat command, wasn't in an early Labor weekend? You have been quiet and no one has heard from you, except in the forum, were everyone has to hear you whinning of why you can't have your treat before X. I notice you have been posting at wee hours of, let's say, dawn? Is there a lot going on? Do that means you haven't return to work yet? Have you slept? I was just wondering. [ September 05, 2002, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: freaky ol'man w/very long wings ]

Exactly. It's all in the details. What has impressed me the most so far (haven't played yet)is the four-eyed dude in Russian uniform. If you click in the unit, it may say something like: Possible nerd programer. Cover arc Double Bonus. Isn't that great? I hope this is a warning and not a spoiler of the endless possiblities of the game and not a spoiler for the many surprises we are yet to see. If the man hadn't say "I'm going to cut some wood, be back in five" and Instead had say "I'll cut you some slack", I would had been lucky enough to get some sleep. But, hey, let's keep those trees swaying!!!

Thanks for your effort MadMatt. To you and all the people at BFC. The demo looks great, even if I haven't tried yet. Even in my ibook looks superb.

Does it mean we have to shout all the time? Or is there a chance we can get IRC(Infinite Recycling Cans)? Anyway, if you can do it without optical wire, you are, broadly speaking, another revolutionary of the industry. I also would like say that you have talked too much. BTS, get the rope!

Hi, just noticed no one was answering (Must be very distracted), and remembered having anotated one title of a book someone had mentioned in one of the treads. "Red Army Tank Commanders: The Armored Guards." By Richard N. Armstrong. I have no editorial or year of print in my note. Also have another title. "Comanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks. The World War II Memoirs of Hero of the Soviet Union Dimitriy Loza." Edited and translated by James F. Gebhardt. University of Nebraska Press. Lincon & London, 1996. Hope this would help you.

Good point about the "read me file", but I guess that's what made you miss "the experience". The story is the "read" for those who missed such "file". I hope you don't ask us to read the Manual too. That's why there is the Forum. LOL.

Thanks everyone for your response. I believe this is "once in a life time experience" we all share. And the game is excelent.

It's been almost three years with all their nights when almost by chance I happened to encounter the demo of the game. I was downloading demos of games to wonder at the graphics of those which I could open and made work. CMBO was one of those demos and I'm not quite sure if it did work. This is why I want to remember. I believe what attracted me was the name,it was the name of a historical event, of a battle event, something I always been curious to know of, some. Maybe the description said it was 3D I don't recall. I opened this demo as skeptically as with any other demo I'd been able to view. Well, I did. In such a hurry to see if the thing would work, that I missed the artwork by clicking GO TO GAME fast. I then click on Chance Encounter just for the thrill of it. Something came out, a kind of landscape. Interesting, now I have to figure this out, I thought. I could see something like half a tank and three stiff soldier-toy like figures. I just hit GO. A message saying -Computer is Thinking- but nothing happened. After that I expend quite a bit of time trying to figure out what had been DONE and how to shut down the blinking. I hit GO twice more wanting to realize what the blue strip meant when nothing was really happening. It was high time to fuss around with the arrows. F Arrow. It moves! I went towards some road and at an intersection, a house. Maybe that's were Grettel's live, I thought sardonically, because it looked like no beaches and not Normandy to me. I tried the other arrows and soon I found myself lost in some trees. I wanted to go back to were the tanks and the three dudes were. When I finally did made it around I was surprised to find not just half a tank, but a few, plus several figures nodding their heads disaprovingly at me. Shame on me, it seemed that they were waiting on me to do something for them, but what? I went towards them and notice more of them to one side of the road by the trees. I started circling around them, almost sniffing them, like a dog who smell something that fell by grace of the sky. I was getting good at those arrows, you know, I wanted to scream "Look mom, no hands". This was my first time driving. From there I think I click on the the other two small arrows and my exclamation was: "It flies too!" So I went and started looking at the guys below, just a little. Then I decided to go and fly 3D. I was having fun, when suddenly I saw some other guys behind a hill and at once I knew who they were, the enemy. Of the other guys, of course, but wasn't I the one that chose Allies in a Holywood way? That was still to be seen. I went and look only to realize that they were as stiff as the other side, plus funny looking vehicles. I leave it there at that time. In my second try I found out that I could use the mouse to move the screen around and soon find myself clicking in the figures trying to make them move. I expend a good time before learning how to press the mouse and find the comands. When I got a tank to the intersection I saw the first firefight and the tank ended immovilized. The guy with the cap ended inside Grettel's house. Amazing, you could see that she wasn't home. The other guys didn't make it to Grettel's. The enemy did, though, or were very close. I saw them come in groups of three into the church behind and others made it to the wall in the other side of the wheat field. After that the Allies didn't make it nowhere. I left the demo at that, I found the 3D experience very interesting but found it too dificult to deal with. It felt I thought, a bit stiff. I looked at the other scenario and indeed, the 3D rendering was very good and different from any other graphics, and yet I trashed it. Time passed, I got a laptop and wanted to try some demos, check how the laptop did with graphics. CMBO demo came to mind, this time I was curious of who made this kind of game, find in description, BTS. Went to homesite and found out they have got a Gold Demo. Good, I thought, maybe this time it will really work. It did,it seemed as if the ibook liked more games than books. This time the graphics were minimized but the rendering was untouched and I made sure everyone moved on. They did and things started happening, like, your guys start shooting without being ordered, almost like saying, "We are moving now, don't look at us, look ahead!". This time they discovered the enemy before I did. A tank I have send down the road gets blown out with everyone on it. It's on fire! four guys end up at Grettel's. Other tanks which I send down through the grass, get bogged. One left behind, which I forgot to move and now I try to hide shyly, gets blown on fire without me noticing for a while. My thought after this was that the funny looking vehicles in the other side weren't funny anymore. I don't remember where I got with that first laptop battle. I didn't care, I only knew that this 3D demo experience had just began. In my second laptop try, I finally finished one game. It was a tactical victory. Hell, I thought, I didn't even knew I was being tactical. Maybe I did press the target comand too much. What had been a chance encounter did become an engaging aquaintance, about a zillion games later. That and going to the forum just to try to find out how to unboog a vehicle, bad mistake. I mean, for someone who is fond of reading like me. Well, sometimes it beats newspapers and magazine racks. Like everyone, I started normal, until I was up to two hundred percent! and full of FoW. Minimal, tactical, major, even one total victory. What a looser, I thought. I have gone the full vicious circle and done the eternal return over and over. Try Mortar= Go to Forum. Try leader= go to forum. You name it. And later, just go to forum, someone may slip their tonge and solve all your riddles. Like, what is IMO? Well you got to know the phraseology, I guess, no matter if you still get beaten by the AI. The AI. No matter if you send in a human wave of bazooka guys and tanks, the AI beats you. My friend, the AI. It had turned me into a die-hard or at least a Russian. So, I learned the hard way and more. As experienced by many, the AI still has a lot to tell us. My chance encounters soon turned into encounters of the third kind. I have gotten pretty good I thought, until I found out one of those surprises you are prone to experience only in CM, when playing against the AI. The Wounded Soldier. It happened when moving three squads through the woods, a scream was heard saying something like "Stumpfuhrerhole!" or what sounded more like "I'm wounded!". Infantry sounds? That was the last I saw of my squads. The next ocurrence was the Biafra Child. This time it was one squad, a zook and a HQ with Stealth bonuses. They went again into Grettel's all ready to party. Before going in I saw someone there that looked like too large a head but a frail tiny body. It couldn't be Grettel, I thought, because it looked black with no golden locks. I went closer to see if it wasn't one of those uber MG's. It was not, it was a Biafra kid, the starved kind you know? "It just a kid", said the leader with stealth, "C'mon men!". I also stop paying attention, later, when I went to fetch the guys wondering why they were taking such a long time to move into the church, they were gone. This time I only find the "DoughBoy", little head and all body. Next time, I say to myself, avoid even the cows! It was high time to move on, this time I have decided to retire and move.....To Plomville. PS. characters Wounded Soldier and Starving Kid taken from sci-fi short story that inspired "The Terminator".

Sabor y Orale! Thanks Sebas for your effort! And don't get discourage by the lurkers in any of your posts, they wish they could know Spanish, maybe they are just shy.

Ok. You are TC/IP.(Too Caught/In Time?) You are PBEM. (Possibly Brodding Extensibly Much?) TCIP is set up and has ordered everyone to attack and is ready in less than 2 minuts. PBEM, who is defending, (let's say, we don't know how much he takes to set up). The "Go" order is about to be reached by the mouse of both contenders, one fast, the other slow. But for some motive in time, maybe a "bug", it started raining. Rain pours like hell and the only thing you get is lightning, even though it can be called FoW. The attacker cannot give a step without slipping in the mud. The defender has only to look at the choppy water in the foxholes to know that it would be better to stay in the higher ground. The defender, even when slow, figures out that in this rain the attack just won't come. No recon, no proves, the battle is suspended for the day. And to add to all this non-sense, I'm Participant of the Thread. a PoT, although on the lower ladder, and I was wondering what my fellow participants were up to. Since, shamefully, I had to admit, I've been away from the forum for a couple or so nights, I was wondering what had caused a ten page thread that I wasn't aware of? I believe that time is really "crushing" us all, no matter if you are fast or slow. This, I really believe, is what "moves" this thread. And to make things more appealing, the thread can have more of a "variety": "He lived a fast-life, die young, but enjoyed". "He lived long, thus, he's decadent". "Are we "Romantcs"? Or, Are we "Classics"? BTW, I had a new cmbo cd laying on my desk. I don't wan't to install just because I have to start and plan my moves. Never mind fast connection or e-mail. Since this is a game, you can always find a friend to play with or the AI (Notice another "variable" of discussion). For those who like to think fast, Thinking is what is all about. Experience had laid everything you have to think of. So, it is "thinking" or just mechanical reflexes? For those who are thoughtfull of their moves, well, that's toughtfull of you. So, does this enhances your perspective of life and time or you are being just "thoughtfull"? Maybe time, which "flies", already had already provided a philosopher who "thought", we should do all our "thinking" when lying flat on our backs. Myself, am the exception, I have to do it in the air, being this the only way I really could lay flat on my back. (Notice Long Wings). This said, it certainly will beat hanging out all day, munching in coffee and bagels to solve problems.

Hi all, I was waiting for cmbo cd. I had asked for it via MO and I was surprised at the amount of time they required for us to wait, 4 to 5 weeks. I'm in California and BTC are in Vermont, so I thought the guys must still be using the "Mayflower" for their deliveries. Or "Nafta", you know, you send it to Canada one way and it comes through Mexico the other way? Well, not quite. I send my MO on the 15th of last month, now is just the eight and is here! just past the third week! Another sign that they are clearing the warehouse and fast before the great event. Thank you BTC, and congratulations in advance for cmbb, which now I know I can wait for it patiently, which I advice, it helps! ps. I was worried that people using MO could be ostrasized. I guess this time we beat the "Credit card" sharks. Thank You, again.

I think that what Dave is implying is this; He had ordered an FO to target two companies at 10 Yards in the dark and that in the process the barrage fell on his own units. One, if you were defending I would call this daring. Two, if you were the attacker and those two companies were your own in the setup zone, I only hope you have enough units left to continue the advance

This is a big subject at hand, for all of us, "newbie" historians, and one that has compelled many works and many different opinions. That may need to be reinforced by some "vets". I want to point out some authors that had dedicated much of their time to the study of the German Army during WWII, it's policies and strategy. Barry A. Leach; "German Strategy Against Russia. 1939-1941". Oxford At The Clarendon Press. 1973. Franz Halder "The HALDER WAR DIARY. 1939-1942. Edited by Charles Burdick and Hans-Adolf Jacobsen. Presidio. US, 1988. note: F. H. Chief of the German General Staff. Hans-Adolf Jacobsen is a German historian which had many works in the subject, the German Army. He's also the editor with Andreas Hillgruber and trans. Robert Frhr von-Friegtag, of "The Soviet History of The Great Patriotic War" by Boris S. Telpuchowski, that is, the official Russian history of the period. They took care of the German edition of this work. Another work I would like to add; David M. Glantz "BARBAROSSA. Hitler invasion of Russia 1941. Tempus. USA, 2001. For his tactical intuition. This, to help us form our own opinion of how things did stand on the strategical level. In the tactical level, imo, Hitler, when playing the Germans, was as "gamey" as it can get.

I only can say, best "intro" since I'd been reading the forum for almost a year, every night. I certainly can't wait until this forum is past the 10,000. Cheers! Lady! ...the silent majorities are coming.

Hi all, I would like to introduce yet another category "The read & then write only" poster. I've read somewhere that to kill a panther you have to be as cunning as the panther itself. The panther when it hunts never exposes itself to the prey for it only knows how terrifying its presence can be. Instead, it "seduces" it's prey to came to him by spraying aromatic odours from its body. For killing the tiger, the only thing I could think of, would be one picture I once saw of a Hindu erotic Painting. In the picture, the Hindu Prince shoots arrows from his bow, at tigers and gazelles, while mounting his concubine. That particular picture is flat and clear in the subject. In other words, maybe you should manouver in the flanks. If you got Shermans, those are inf-support tanks,ie., they would only support the guys with "zooks" and are not match against P's & T's in frontal engagement. If you got an M10 T-D, that's your lucky day. Still, remember, the flanks! Panthers and Tigers, it had been said, were found weaker on their side armour. M10's, in the other hand, are very menacing-looking, huge mothers, for what I had seen in photos. This I have seen, read somewhere. A book? A thread!?

Hi, I have something to add to the topic. It is an excerpt from Alexander Werth's "The war in Russia. 1941-1945".E.P. Dutton & CO., INC. New York,1964. He comments that althought the Battle of Yelnya in the month of August; "was not a major battle of the Soviet-German war, and yet one has to live back into the fearfull summer of 1941 to realise how vital it was for Russian Morale." In one interview the author had with General Sokolovsky, "at that time General Konev's Chief of Staff", the author mentions that; "He (G. Sokolovsky) thought German communications were being seriously interfered with by the partisans in the enemy rear. He also thought that Russian artillery was greatly superior to German artillery. Thought he admitted that the Germans still had great air and tank superiority." I'm hoping this little tidbit adds to the general idea of the Yelnia salient battles. The interview was held in Vyazma, in the Smolenk Front sector at the time. The athor sees this as a Russian victory, although he mentions events would change "for the worst" for the defendants of the salient, later, for they would be encircled.

It seems that every comment, as short as it can be, does clarify a lot of questions that arise. Thank you guys for this information since it broadens my understanding of the game and of the different topics that are discussed in this forum. My question arouse because it has been pointed out, when using inf-only rules in a match, that if you wanted to buy an AT asset, well, they "wished you luck". But research tells me different, inf-only rules, in my understanding does not allowed 88's (I believe it is made clear that it is AA 88's), this is, in CMBO, but what would happen in CMBB, when we know the use of certain arms in the war in Russia, at times, was not the standard? My point is that contestants should be aware of details of this kind, even when "rare", To balance their games in the future. I also hope the upcoming CMBB is full of all those "Minor" details which are just amazing in CMBO. Thank you again, Olle, Andreas, your information is much appreciated.

I've been looking at a book of mostly pictures & synopsis in German with short English translations. The book is titled "Die Deutschen Vor Moskau 1941/42. By Werner Haupt. There are several pictures of Flak 88's being use on ground targets. A quote in the book states; "Anti-aircraft guns become important weapons in ground-fighting. In this sector alone 3.000 Russian tanks have been destroyed." The sector in question is the Rzhev sector (Kalinin Front). I'm aware that players had adopted rules when playing PBEM games and that those rules are there to make their game more challanging as a simulation of the period, as I understand. My question is how this would affect these rules, ie., infantry-only rules were 88's are not allowed. (The pictures show me that those guns are being used in support of ground troops). And later in the winter of 41/42 another quote states that AA guns had become the backbone of the German Army during the retreat. I'm wondering how these rules would be affected by information of this sort and how it will be addressed. This is not a question of if there would be rules or not rules, but in the scope of CMBB, I wonder what surprises the game has for the player in a situation like this.

Cool posters, thanks for sharing.

Hi, I give a bump to the list 'cause threads keep appearing on same subject. PzL, Victor Nekrasov's novel is written by a soldier. An enginer during the siege of Stalingrad. The man became a pretty good writer after the war. Even Mihail Shokolov ( "The Storm" & Nobel Prize, 1965), praises him. Alexander Bek's book was written because the writer wanted to interview one of the soldiers who were fighting before Moscow, He found him in the Siberian Mumi Ulish. The book I have to ask from storage in a main university library, though. Bek, Grossman, Shokolov, Simonov and I believe Plevier were all war correspondants at the time. Andreas, I have read a couple of the books you mentioned, "Through Hell" and "Few Returned". The first one gives me the same feeling as it did you. The man sounds a bit arrogant, perhaps is the title of the book, perhaps is that he made it back, who knows, the feeling remains. Anyhow, there is some reminiscents of how life went for a soldier in the east front. Like the man being left alone to take care of a broken tank for weeks and how he ends up working and getting drunk with Russian peasants. "Few Returned" is a different story, it talk mostly of the hardsips and death of many Italians in POW camps. "Death March", epidemics, cannibalism... a very "Heavy" reading for a short book. Plevier's Stalingrad is on the same vein, it talks about the German retreat from Kalach all the way down to the cellars of Stalingrad. But for Plevier you must follow his trilogy. I also placed other titles in the thread "East Front books, recomendations?" and would repeat here. "Night Witches. The Untold Story of Soviet Women in Combat". Bruce Myles. Presidio Press. Us, 1981. "Russia's Heroes". Albert Axell. Carroll $ Graf Publishers, INC. New York, 2001. "Russia at War". Alexander Werth. E.P. Dutton & CO. New York, 1964. (A must, imo) "Other Men's Graves". Peter Neuman. Weidenfeld and Nicolson. London, 1958. (Written by an SS) So to counter-balance the above: "War of Extermination. The German Military in WWII, 1941-1944. Edited by Hannes Heer & Klauss Naumann. Berhahn Books. New York-Oxford, 2000. German Edition, 1995. thank you.

Sorry, I can't help myself on bringing back this thread because it had a great funny story by Saving Private Ryan on it...don't miss all your fee time! (LoL)

it's too quiet...bump

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