Degus Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 I read once that an AT guns first shot is usually its last and I'm finding this to be true in CM. Any tips on deploying these things in setup so they can survive past round 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curih Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 You're best bet is usually to use them in ambush. Posistion them with a very narrow line of fire on a key bend in a road. Then it can hit tanks as they pass in front of that norrow firing arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maastrictian Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Keeping them in command also increases their life time by about a factor of 2. Also, the heavier the woods the better (duh). --Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlos Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 I have found that using them to cover parts of a road is VERY effective. Aim it so that it will ifre on anything coming around a certain corner. ------------------ < All gave some, some gave ALL> Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page http://www.combat-mission.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grendel Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Agreed. My first instinct was to place them with as wide a FOV as possible, but that quickly proves diasterous; AT guns lack the mobility of tanks, and so can't pop a shot and run. So what everyone else is saying is exactly right, place your AT weapons with tightly defined FOVs. It's possible that nothing will cross the path of your AT guns, but if it does, your chances of a kill and further survival are much higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Fredriksson Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 Well, my limited experience so far has shown that at least German AT-guns have a good rate-of-fire! In "drive-to-mortain" my first 75mm (placed in the middle of the road!) fired 2 or 3 shots before first incoming round. It took out two Shermans before biting the dust. In Elsdorf my 50mm got of 5 or 6 rounds before getting killed. It brought with it 2 Priests to the happy hunting grounds. So I would say, if you can't get in a position to cover road-bend or get good cover, simply engage at longest possible range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degus Posted September 18, 2000 Author Share Posted September 18, 2000 Thanks for the tips! Hiding the guns and ambushing a narrow part of likely approach routes seems to be the way. My 76mm survived finally. I got a photo of a dead 76 crew at Honsfeld I can take off the wall now...thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Man Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Take a look at what this little ole 57mm AT gun did in a new scenario I am tweaking.I am stunned to say the least.The gun is behind a 3 foot wall and their is a Burning building about 100 meters in fromt of the Gun,protecting it from frontal LOS.It's killing ground was within 500 meters.It almost ran out of Ammo ! <center> </center> [This message has been edited by Panzer Man (edited 09-19-2000).] [This message has been edited by Panzer Man (edited 09-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Can I also add the tiny point that it is usually good to support your AT gun with at least a MG or a squad in LOS, so that if Infantry comes along the will have a hard time rushing and killing your AT Gun. My 2 pence (UK calling). CoralSaw ------------------ The best things in life are sniped at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgardner Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 From a former Anti-tank platoon leader. Position your weapons within good concealment (obviously) but rely on long range flank shot. In other words, try to have some concealing or covering terrain on your flank (good rise in ground, etc.) and wait in ambush. But don't do this if you're in a pbem game with me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLilly Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Interesting point on the mg. I read a book Panzer Jager (a memoir). In it, the author said that on the Russian front all antitank guns had an mg assigned to them, which doesn't happen in CM unless you buy them separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 I've been playing more with AT guns lately (trying to polish my technique) and I am currently in the process of writing a hopefully useful 'tactics' article outlining how to create a successful AT ambush in CM. If I don't get it done soon, I'll post more info here. If I do get it done soon (end of this week) I'll try to find a website where I can post it. ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maastrictian Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 IntelWeenie: sounds great, besure to post and let us know when its up! --Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 One small thing I have not seen mentioned yet is make the enemy AFVs button up first with small arms fire or mortars. The enemy AFVs will have a much harder time spotting your hidden AT gun when they are buttoned. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faust Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 I suppose one solution for AT gun longevity, (practiced on numerous occassions during WW 11), was to have an accompanying tow vehicle. The German army was a master of hitting with AT 88's, then quickly moving them down a few kilometers, set them up again etc. Not always with success, mind you, but certainly increasing their long term effectiveness. Perhaps buy some trucks with AT guns's during random set ups. I'm surprised that CM scenarios use numerous AT guns but with no transport? Not totally faithful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm surprised that CM scenarios use numerous AT guns but with no transport? Not totally faithful?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It probably has to do with the timeframes modelled by CM. It would take some time to transport and fix the gun in place, which would limit its useful time. CoralSaw ------------------ The best things in life are sniped at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest morjit Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 When you get it done send it my way and I'll be happy to post it for you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: I am currently in the process of writing a hopefully useful 'tactics' article outlining how to create a successful AT ambush in CM. I'll try to find a website where I can post it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ Jason Combat Mission Canadian HQ cmhq.tzo.com/canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 I can bear out what people are saying about the desirability of limiting the anti-tank gun's FOV. In a scenario where I had three 88's, the terrain prevented my from given them all wide, mutually-supporting FOV's so the ended up with fairly limited scope. The one with the widest FOV destroyed one Chaffee before succumbing to return fire. The one with the narrowest FOV never got a look at anything. The middle one, with (effectively) two separate narrow FOV's destroyed 3 Stuarts, 1 HMC whatsit, 1 armoured car, and one unidentified something-or-other. In fact, what impressed me most was that it was a green crew. There was no direct fire brought to bear on the gun's position, but it became the target of what I think were a 75mm and 81mm FO for four moves. The last kill, a Stuart, was spotted 2.5 turns into the bombardment. The crew had been taking cover, but on sighting the target, they jumped up, trained the gun, brewed up the Stuart with the first shot, and promptly took cover again. The gun was destroyed during the fourth turn of artilley fire, but the were no casualties, and they made a dignified exit towards the rear. Worth an Iron Cross recommendation, do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faust: I suppose one solution for AT gun longevity, (practiced on numerous occassions during WW 11), was to have an accompanying tow vehicle. The German army was a master of hitting with AT 88's, then quickly moving them down a few kilometers, set them up again etc. Not always with success, mind you, but certainly increasing their long term effectiveness. Perhaps buy some trucks with AT guns's during random set ups. I'm surprised that CM scenarios use numerous AT guns but with no transport? Not totally faithful?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was using my HT (a 250/1 IIRC) to move around a 50mm AT gun that the computer bought for me. It worked well, the gun was moved 3 times before the enemy got to close for me to move it away easily so I left it in place and moved the HT elsewhere to support the defense. Most trucks have a towing capacity (never checked tanks) , I just dont think people use it much. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlos Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: I've been playing more with AT guns lately (trying to polish my technique) and I am currently in the process of writing a hopefully useful 'tactics' article outlining how to create a successful AT ambush in CM. If I don't get it done soon, I'll post more info here. If I do get it done soon (end of this week) I'll try to find a website where I can post it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have posted strategy along with an AAR and a scenario on the AT Ambush matter. I advice you all to check it out. VERY nice work IW! ------------------ < All gave some, some gave ALL> Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page http://www.combat-mission.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faust: I suppose one solution for AT gun longevity ... was to have an accompanying tow vehicle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately not so successful in CM. I've tried it once with 6pdrs but the time to unlimber was 4 minutes or so, nothing to go for fired at. The German 88's take about twice as long to unlimber. My real life experience with ATGs were that we could stop the towing vehicle in cover, prepare the gun and man handle it about 10m up a ridge to get into firing position, aim and shoot within one minute. If there were more time available we also measured ranges (another minute or two) and dug in (a matter of hours or more). Movement on fairly hard open flat surfaces, like lawns and dirt roads, was at full running speed. Of course our gun was only 250kg total, a fair bit less than the PaK 40, but then we also had a small crew. I don't know how long it actually took in WW2 to limber or unlimber ATGs, only that it's a fair bet that heavy guns need more time than light guns. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faust Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson: Unfortunately not so successful in CM. I've tried it once with 6pdrs but the time to unlimber was 4 minutes or so, nothing to go for fired at. The German 88's take about twice as long to unlimber. My real life experience with ATGs were that we could stop the towing vehicle in cover, prepare the gun and man handle it about 10m up a ridge to get into firing position, aim and shoot within one minute. If there were more time available we also measured ranges (another minute or two) and dug in (a matter of hours or more). Movement on fairly hard open flat surfaces, like lawns and dirt roads, was at full running speed. Of course our gun was only 250kg total, a fair bit less than the PaK 40, but then we also had a small crew. I don't know how long it actually took in WW2 to limber or unlimber ATGs, only that it's a fair bet that heavy guns need more time than light guns. Cheers Olle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Pity! The CM scenario "Fire & Maneuver", albeit it's a training scenario, (thus not realistic), for AT defense, the three US 76AT's are "exposed on a ridge" waiting for fire opportunity. It would be interesting to have three TOW's and move them around behind some smoke and then see how the foray would turn out. With such flexibilty one would probably not need the additional four M10's(?). Interesting to note your personal AT experience. I suppose I'm still surprised that hit and run with AT's and TOW's is/was not more of a science. Appreciate specifically 88's were big and hard to hide but give me twelve of them, with smoke, and used with some expertise I doubt two dozen Shermans Jumbos could get to first base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 22, 2000 Share Posted September 22, 2000 You have to keep in mind the time scale of CM. Limbering and unlimbering these AT guns in a single CM game as well as moving them around takes a lot of time. Most accounts that I have read of this tactic are not confined to a single 20-40 minute engagement (ie a CM battle). I more apt comparison would be their use in a CM operation with the AT guns movement and re-deployment abstracted inbetween the individual battles (for the most part). Just my 2 cents. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Yomtov Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 Just a reply to the opening comment: I've read that on average ATGs on the East Front got four kills before being dispatched themselves. All of the comments on this thread are really insightful. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 23, 2000 Share Posted September 23, 2000 In regards to AT mobility, don't forget the ability for 88s to fire from limber. It will also be interesting when we get to CM3 to check out 2 lbr. portee combos. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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