My first last-turn-terrain-grab has left me surrely

[iron_weasel]

I just played my first multiplayer game. And on the last turn my opponent sent his dudes charging full speed towards one of my objectives. Thus when the game ended I did not claim the objective. I never really thought about somebody trying that so I was unprepared. What do most people feel about this? It seems kind of cheap to me...

[L.Tankersley]

Originally posted by irslutz:

I just played my first multiplayer game. And on the last turn my opponent sent his dudes charging full speed towards one of my objectives. Thus when the game ended I did not claim the objective. I never really thought about somebody trying that so I was unprepared. What do most people feel about this? It seems kind of cheap to me...

Well, if you didn't have forces positioned to prevent the enemy from doing a last-minute charge like that, I don't think you could really claim to be in control of the objective anyway.

[iron_weasel]

I may not have had the flag well protected. The mission was Bruyeres, and he threw that 105mm Supper Sherman right on top of the flag. He did not really support it, but then again panzerfausts aren't reliable enough to have killed it. So maybe it was a good move.

[Michael Emrys]

The last turn victory lunge has been long since castigated as gamey. Cures for this have been mooted. Probably the most workable is a variable concealed endpoint for the game. That is, if a scenario or QB is designed to have, say, 25 turns, it might in actual play run 24 or 26 turns. It might even, though less probably, have a duration of 23 or 27 turns. Neither player would know the actual game length until the program announced that play was over. This way, if the game runs short, a player would run out of time before he could make his lunge. Or if it ran long, his opponent would have an opportunity to riposte.

Michael

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by irslutz:

I just played my first multiplayer game. And on the last turn my opponent sent his dudes charging full speed towards one of my objectives. Thus when the game ended I did not claim the objective. I never really thought about somebody trying that so I was unprepared. What do most people feel about this? It seems kind of cheap to me...

Well, if you didn't have forces positioned to prevent the enemy from doing a last-minute charge like that, I don't think you could really claim to be in control of the objective anyway.</font>

[Redwolf]

There is an endgame randomizer which is the right thing to do, but the Badco (?) implementation is totally crappy. If you trust your opponent, throw a dice for the last turns.

As for the rush, don't overestima the value of the flags. A flag rush will usually turn your flags into neutral. How much points that brings depend on the losses that occured in the game so far. In my opinion, most scenarios and the battles generated by the QuickBattle generator have too few flags in them, but that has the positive side effect that flag rushes are quite useless.

In fact, just yesterday my opponent rushes one big (300 points) and one small flag (100 points), and I am sure it was a mistake. He succeeded in making them neutral, but that doesn't mean he took 200 points away from me. It means he took 400 points out of the victory calculation, so that knockout points suddenly become much more important, because the game result is now based purely on knockout points.

His flag rush caused substancial casulties since it was an infantry rush into the teeth of a Sherman and friends, I am sure he actually lowered his victory level be doing the rush thing.

Especially clever is rushing with crews, empty arty spotter, flamethrowers, halftrack APCs and other fragile high-value units.

And as a side note, the radius that causes a flag to be neutral around it is pretty big, if you are sitting in some houses besides it within 80meter or so you are fine anyway and have it neutral, no need to literally climb the flag.

[Holien]

Hi

For what it is worth it is part of the game so live with it or find opponents that think the same way as you.

An answer is random endings which I hope will be included in the next release. But even with it it can still happen.

I have had it happen to me and it is not fun at the time, but it is a "GAME" and if you know that it can happen then you can always use it as a tool for yourself. If that is your bag...

H

P.s. I do it to close friends as it helps me bond with them by giving them something to moan about...

[ March 15, 2002, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Do any of you establish end-of-game-flag-rush 'gentlemen's agreements' beforehand?

[Redwolf]

I did a few times. But amoung the tournamenthouse ladder people usually know the scoring system well enough to avoid trying it anyway.

I was accused of a flag rush lately (in a game where nothing had been said about this beforehand). In that case I drove a MMG carrier to a completely vacant, changing it to my side.

[ March 15, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[jjelinek]

I am about 3/4 of the way through reading "A Bridge Too Far" and could pick out at least 5 or 6 battles where "rushing the flag" occured. A few would be the German counter attack across the bridge at Arnhem, the 82nd's assualt across the Waal at Nijmegen and almost any of the battles at the landing zones. While I admit that these tactics could often be considered "gamey", it was not that rare that a unit would have to make a mad dash to capture a key objective and make great sacrifices for the greater cause. Sometimes the segment of the battle that a senerio is tying to capture makes "rushing the flag" historically accurate. I could see in the upcoming CMBB that Soviet human wave assualts could make "rushing the flag" even more common.

[Mud]

jjelinek --

It's not rushing the objective, by itself, that's gamey. It's doing so on the last turn, usually to throw an enemy-held flag into contention, especially when using sufficiently weak forces that, had the game lasted a few more turns, the only lasting result of the rush would be dead rushers scattered around a still-enemy-held flag.

::edit::

Yes, theoretically, this sort of thing could be resolved by automatically adding more turns if the game still appears to be in flux. But, IIRC, it's been said that this sort of thing would have to wait for the rewrite.

[ March 16, 2002, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Mud ]

[Moriarty]

While I don't like losing that way, I guess I look at it as my responsibility to prepare for it with whatever forces I have left at the end. It's like the edge-hugging argument that sometimes comes up. I believe flank security is my responsibility.

I played one game where I was in a good position to rush in the last two turns. I had a fairly strong infantry force and likely could have taken two flags. But, I had played the entire game up to that point using recon and bounding overwatch, i.e. a slow, steady approach. I felt it would be cheesy, so I continued the tactics I used all along until time ran out. The last turn was a shootout with our forces separated by about 40m. My opponent won a minor vic, but I didn't mind as we had a helluva good fight. If anything, I was disappointed in my own tactics for not pushing harder in early and midgame to have taken the flags in the course of my attack before the clock ran out.

[Caesar]

Personally I think that the turn limit is somewhat artificial in most circumstances anyway. In real life, for most battles, if taking a target in 30 mins as opposed to 25 mins meant the saving of a number of your unit, I think most would use the extra five minutes. Even worse is where you take a position in the last turn when you know that you would be slaughtered the next turn if there was one. This is gamey, pure and simple.

I prefer to set the time/turn limit of the game to higher than seems necessary and just call a ceasefire when it is apparent that the battle is over. This way the battle is fought in a more realistic manner with both trying to achieve the target as effectively as possible.

Obviously there are exceptions to this rule, where things have to be achieved in a certain time (i.e. in a hurry) and in these circumstances a time/turn limit with a small random factor added would eliminate gamey behaviour.

OTOH, occupying a vacant position with a spare unit as redwolf describes above is perfectly reasonable. If a significant position in real life was not being contested then you may well send a small unit to occupy it. That is simply a failure of your opponent to appreciate its worth and do something about it.

[ March 16, 2002, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Caesar ]

[Patgod]

i'm reminded of a moment at the battle of gettysburg(i think) where a lower level officer(col. maybe?) noticed an important section of high ground was completely undefended. he sent a small unit(brigade maybe?) to guard it. the hill later came under heavy attack by confed forces.

very vague i know, but its saturday....and i never said i was a grog

[wbs]

From Patgod:

i'm reminded of a moment at the battle of gettysburg(i think) where a lower level officer(col. maybe?) noticed an important section of high ground was completely undefended. he sent a small unit(brigade maybe?) to guard it. the hill later came under heavy attack by confed forces.

very vague i know, but its saturday....and i never said i was a grog

Perhaps I can help...

On July 2nd 1863 Union Brigadier General Gouverneur Warren noted that the top of Little Round Top was empty, and the Confederates were headed that way. On his own authority, he commandeered a passing brigade (Strong Vincent's, I believe)and rushed them up to the top of Little Round Top just minutes ahead of the attacking Confederates (damn it!).

You may read more about it at:

http://www.gdg.org/savior1.html

Two of my however-many-Great Grandfathers were confederate officers who participated in the attack. Both survived uninjured.

[ March 16, 2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: wbs ]

[xerxes]

I agree with L.Tank, if your opponent can manage to "rush" the flag in the last turn and make it contested you have totally failed to achieve your tactical objective of CONTROL. You can't claim to your commanding officer that you've achieve control if the enemy can place an afv or a squad in the objective without you killing them first.

I don't like when a rush happens to me, but I know it is 100% my fault for failing to adequately protect what I was supposed to have captured.

flag rush = not gamey

If anything, complaining about it strikes me as questionably gamey. There, hah, take that.

- marc s

[ March 16, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: xerxes ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Caesar:

I prefer to set the time/turn limit of the game to higher than seems necessary and just call a ceasefire when it is apparent that the battle is over. This way the battle is fought in a more realistic manner with both trying to achieve the target as effectively as possible.

I agree. For QBs I usually go with the default 30 mins. Most units are pretty low on ammo by that time anyway, which sets a more natural, less arbitrary limit on the length of the battle. But I'm not above adding ten minutes if I anticipate that a lot of maneuvering is going to take place before units actually close with the enemy.

Michael

[rhudat]

i agree that its just part of the game.

when an objective is taken it must be defended

immediately and effectively for the entire game. if you don't anticipate that your'e enemy may have a reserve force and protect against them,

you must pay the price.

your'e opponent is not the only one that can rush the flag. i will sometimes defend away from the objective so my opponent will think it may be an easy target for the whole game. then with 2/3 turns to go i'll charge forward in hopes of being there first and waiting. it usually catches them offgaurd even when they see it happening because they know they should have attempted to take that flag earlier in the game. i've also started a defense at the objective to dig in and when the game starts i'll retreat and wait. then i'll have foxholes waiting in my later rush.

IMHO its only gamey if one player is unaware of these tactics. most players learn to adapt quickly after theyv'e seen this happen to them.

[Ex Bellator]

There has been a mention of the Badco Endgame Randomiser earlier, and it has was described as crappy. IMO it is anything but, we use it all the time in our TCP games and it's a piece of cake to operate.

I usually set it for 27 turns + or - 3 turns. In todays game my buddy was punished for being too paranoid. After spending 24 turns cautiously probing and area firing around the main objective, he sent 3 Tigers up for the big push when he was sure I had no major threats left. Then rarely the Randomiser declared Ceasefire immediately on turn 24 (it's weighted to declare somewhere around the middle of the turn range, so first/last possible turn declarations are uncommon).

Result, my Tommy Infantry laughing (probably out of relief) as he was shamefacedly recalled early to explain his cowardly performance to his impatient commander.

I'd recommend the utility, flag rushes become impossible (especially with a wide possible last turn range), and you can simply email the file for verification at the game end if you and your opponent feel the need.

[Patgod]

the problem i have with it is that you dont actually have to contest a damn thing to turn the flag "?".

for example, yesterday i was playing "A chance encounter" vs the AI. Not a very hard senario(playing as germans) in the slightest. I had the 2 flags closest to me secured(thats the church and the right side forest) with 1-2 platoons each, along with 1 stug for each flag(the stug on the right side was shelling infantry behind the wall).

There were several allied rifle squads sitting in the small patch of scattered trees to the left of the church, and i was moving up my 81mm FO to shell them out of that position. the AI decides now is a good time to attack with 3 squads and a company(i think) HQ unit. since i had 2mg42's, 1 stug, and at least 6 healthy VG squads the attack was destroyed. about half of each allied squad was killed before then turned back. However the HQ unit(with only 1 man alive) did not break. Instead he stopped in the open between the flag and the trees. He was not even close to the flag, yet he was enough to cause it to become "contested". luckily this was no where near the final turn, so in the first 10 seconds of the next round he found himself the target of StuGIIIg Assault gun who was none to happy to see him.

BTW, 3 turns later that 81mm FO was set up and the survivors of that attack were not too happy to see it(god i love airbursts).