Waypoint Command Delay Solution?

[Black Max]

A friend and I were discussing the Way point movement delays, its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. One theory I came up with, would be to minimize or cancel delay times when the following occurs. Note that I cannot say whether this can be incorporated into a Patch for CMBB or if it is for the NEW Combat Mission (CM3). It is just a suggestion for improvement, discussion and thought.

There should be NO (or minimal) command delay when the following occurs.

A units way point is located/created in the same terrain type as the last way point.

This would be the equivalent of: "Go down that road." or "Go east through those trees."

Ah, so now your thinking: What happens if I use a way point from a road and then move across other terrain (without using a way point) and click the last way point on a road again?

The answer is: Thats ok. The equivalent command would be: "Go east, till you get to a road." Or "Move East for 50 yards till you hit a road". These orders should not have large command delays. But multiple way point commands into different terrain types should increase the delay time.

Delays should occur for the following:

When a units way points change from one terrain type to another terrain type during movement. Or, more specifically. When a units way point terrain type is different from its last way point terrain type.

Here is an example. Consider a T34 moving from scattered trees to a road, then down the road around the block (still on the road) and then across a wall in open ground.

If the T34 creates way points from the scattered trees to the road there is a command delay. Then the T34 goes down the road and around the block (requiring numerous way points but still staying on the road) there should be no command delay (or a minimal delay). As the T34 crosses off the road into open ground and across the wall, an additional command delay should occur.

As an alternate explanation, suppose the T34 was on the road and wanted to move around the corner (still on the road) and then drive across a wall in open ground. The T34 could create multiple way points, all on the road but without a huge command delay. But once it moved into open ground and over the wall a command delay penalty would occur.

Any suggestions, improvement to this idea and could it be incorporated into CMBB?

[demoss]

A units way point is located/created in the same terrain type as the last way point.

That would take us right back to the abusive practices in CMBO that led to the current situation in the first place. Think how badly this could be abused by infantry on a heavily wooded map.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> A units way point is located/created in the same terrain type as the last way point.

That would take us right back to the abusive practices in CMBO that led to the current situation in the first place. Think how badly this could be abused by infantry on a heavily wooded map. </font>

[Black Max]

demoss:

Can you be more specific or give an example of "the abusive practices in CMBO"?

Regardless, if there was some abuse,

eg. A squad moving all over the place in a large wooded area.

then a minimal delay penalty for multiple waypoints should be applied, but that command could be as simple as "Patrol the woods" and would not require a considerable delay on starting. This is as I stated (listed below) in my origional post.

"There should be NO (or minimal) command delay when the following occurs.

A units way point is located/created in the same terrain type as the last way point."

Your "Infantry on a heavily wooded map" scenario can also be applied to a tank within a city with lots of roads. Should they have a large delay time, just to drive down the road?

Now I am not disputing your point completely, as I recall a post or message by the fine people who created CMBO & CMBB, about how game play is actually too fast. The waypoint delay may just be a way of slowing it down.

Regardless, I am just giving my 2 cents on how to potentially improve an already fantastic game.

[Tarquelne]

A units way point is located/created in the same terrain type as the last way point.

This would be the equivalent of: "Go down that road." or "Go east through those trees."

Ah, so now your thinking: What happens if I use a way point from a road and then move across other terrain (without using a way point) and click the last way point on a road again?

Actually, I was thinking "So I can zig-zag, or describe whatever non-pattern I want through the terrain with only minimal or no delay. So, minimal delay - I can see that. "No delay", though. I don't think so. OTOH, I'd rather see the delay distrubuted among the various waypoints, or at least a portion of the delay divided among all the waypoints.

What happens if I use a way point from a road and then move across other terrain (without using a way point) and click the last way point on a road again?

/snip/ These orders should not have large command delays.

Note that with the current system if you "move across other terrain (witout using a way point)" you don't incure additional delay either.

I guess I don't buy the basic concept - that it's when crossing terrain "borders" that delay should be added, and it should be minimized when not crossing such borders.

Your system works for follwing a road, and it works for, say, circling a house, but only so long as long as the terrain around the house is homogenous.

You're thinking that its when units move from one terrain type to another that they'll tend to change whatever they're doing, needing to reorganize, plan, etc? I think that's often true, but not often enough.

I doubt, btw, that we'll see any basic changes to the system in a patch, but I'm guessing that we'll see BIG changes in the engine rewrite. So big that most thoughts toward tweaking the present system won't really apply in the new system. (Something much closer to the TacOps SOP type-of-thing has been mentioned a few times... by a BFCer, though? I don't remember.)

[ December 05, 2002, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Black Max:

I recall a post or message by the fine people who created CMBO & CMBB, about how game play is actually too fast. The waypoint delay may just be a way of slowing it down.

Yes the game is far too fast - casualties are inflicted far too rapidly and ammunition is expended too quickly.

But they are all more or less accelerated by the same amount, so in relative terms things appear quite reasonable (IMO).

So slowing down one aspect of it (such as waypoint delays) distorts the apparent scale of things relative to each other (IMO).

Command delays may be more realistic, but they're no longer following the same time scale as other major aspects of the simulation. (IMO of course)

[Black Max]

Tarqulene,

I agree with you that my system is not perfect. But I think it would ease up on large time delays for a tank moving down a road. Or infantry moving across an open field staying out of the marsh. And the shortening or abuse of unit delays through the same terrain (with multiple way points) would be minimal.

Regardless, I too doubt that btw will do any modifications to CMBB and certainly enjoy the game as it is now.

[Tarquelne]

But I think it would ease up on large time delays for a tank moving down a road. Or infantry moving across an open field staying out of the marsh.

Yur. (That's a lazy "Yes", btw.)

And the shortening or abuse of unit delays through the same terrain (with multiple way points) would be minimal.

Ur? (That's a lazy "I think the point debatable, and, while I think your right about the benfits, you might be overlooking the costs and/or programming effort needed." "Ur" can say a lot.) I was going to meantion why, but since you've followed the threads on this I'm sure your familiar with the arguments.

Regardless, I too doubt that btw will do any modifications to CMBB and certainly enjoy the game as it is now.

Agree with you there (and and that the present system isn't perfect either.) I'm hopeing BTW, that the next engine will recognize "terrain borders" as such and allow a unit to follow a path describing such a border with minimal/no delay from the various twists and turns the border may take. (A road could be marked as one long border, perhaps?)

[The Vyrdolak]

Originally posted by Black Max:

A friend and I were discussing the Way point movement delays, its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages.

What if units were to turn to the new heading

without a delay, but wouldn't be able to continue

moving until the delay was up?

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Mike:

I never encountered such abuse - what was it? What was the effect?

The abuse was apon the ass of any player who used few waypoints, and it was inflicted by the gamey, micro-managing player (like me) who used lots of waypoints to control their units better.

Now a friggin nOOb can select all his units, click advance, and beat me

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike:

I never encountered such abuse - what was it? What was the effect?

The abuse was apon the ass of any player who used few waypoints, and it was inflicted by the gamey, micro-managing player (like me) who used lots of waypoints to control their units better.</font>

[imported_Wildman]

Black Max,

Do you play "Crossfire" by chance?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mike:

IMO there's a masive case for there to be no additional delay under some circumstances:

1/ Any order given on T1 - beign the pre-battle orders already given.

2/ Movement along a road at a single speed regardless of corners. Relatively easy to describe - if 2 waypoints are both on roads, and all movement betwen them is on a raod, and the movement segment is at the same speed as the one immediately before it.

I agree with both of those suggestions and think they would cover the vast majority of problems players are having with the existing system.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mike:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tecumseh:

So it wasn't something that unbalanced the game in favour of any side, or any particular stance or something like that - it was somethign that unbalanced the game because some players choose to spend more time in figuring out how to get teh best from "ordinary" units?

Heck - that'd be a traversty - God forbid that anyone could get an advantage by using a bit of brain power!!</font>

You miss the point. Which is that he would be gaining an advantage by doing something that a real life commander could not do, i.e. explain a complex movement order in zero time.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

You miss the point. Which is that he would be gaining an advantage by doing something that a real life commander could not do, i.e. explain a complex movement order in zero time.

And the counter point to that is that most of the orders the player gives to units in CM are depicting "common sense" type decisions that would be made by the unit itself, not given to it in a command.

And round and round we go...

[Dschugaschwili]

I have not yet read about one important point in this thread: adjusting waypoints.

Imagine you issue a long movement order, jumping from one wood patch to the next. According to the system proposed here, this should be possible with minimum delay. Now imagine that I'm a gamey player, so I've put the waypoints farther away not where I actually want them, but in a wood patch near that. Now, during the next orders phase I can shift those waypoints towards the real destination without any additional delay, although now the waypoints are on a different terrain type.

There are a few major issues with this system, and I don't think they could easily be worked out. The current system seems much better to me with the possible exception of road movement, but that should probably be handled differently.

Dschugaschwili

[Black Max]

Wildman,

No, never played "Crossfire"? Does it have the same sort of waypoint movement system as mentioned in this post?

Dschugaschwili,

I agree that a "gamey player" will always find a way to work around the system. Yet shifting waypoints from the same terrain types to different terrain could incur an additional penalty. Of course, I am not sure what that would require in CMBB as far as programming modifications go. I am sure it wouldn't be a simple fix.

[Dirtweasle]

I just realized how long of a delay can acculumate actually when moving a collumn of tanks down a winding road. Lossing several seconds to make 45 degree changes in turns is truly a pain in the shorts.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

You miss the point. Which is that he would be gaining an advantage by doing something that a real life commander could not do, i.e. explain a complex movement order in zero time.

And the counter point to that is that most of the orders the player gives to units in CM are depicting "common sense" type decisions that would be made by the unit itself, not given to it in a command.

And round and round we go...</font>