Help, I'm getting eaten alife....

[RSColonel_131st]

Eek!

Now that we are over the technical problems, it's time that I start whining about how mean the AI is.

I'm playing mostly defense missions currently, as I like them best. As german.

How comes the russians ALWAYS have tons of tanks (5, 6 pieces) and a few groups of infantry, while I barely get two AT-Guns and a few MG's?

Okay, as defender you get mines, and target points, and bunkers...none of that is worth anything against T-34s it seems. I'm completely mining every open space I can, and they roll trough it without even sneezing. My Arty doesn't hit a whole city if it needed to, let alone a tank.

To make things worser, the T-34 seems pretty unpiercable by anything german. Lots of riochets, hardly any penetrations.

I take it playing normal battles would give me more armor than defense? Maybe for an equal chance...

It's kinda getting frustrating, so any help would be appreciated. I can't defend against enemy tanks with either infantry or own tanks, and now that's not really fun...

[-E]

ROFL

http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmbb_guide/cmbb_guide.html

[Michael Emrys]

If you are getting beaten by the AI while playing defense, you really need help!

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

...I barely get two AT-Guns and a few MG's?

Then for starters, you need to purchase your own forces. No fair buying a bunch of Jagdpanthers (unless you want to) but you can toss in a 75mm PaK 40 and a couple more MGs.

You might need to rethink your procedures on where you are placing the stuff you have. Keyholing is your friend. Treat him with respect. Try to put everything where it will be mutually supporting. The best way to kill tanks is to shoot at them with two or more guns from widely different directions. Most armored vehicles have lots of armor on their fronts, less on their sides, and still less on their rears. If you are placing your AT assets where he can take them on one at a time, and always face you with his best armor, you are making life a lot harder on yourself than you may need to. Even tank hunter teams—in fact, even ordinary infantry, especially if they are armed with Panzerfausts—can score kills if you get them in close enough.

Michael

[ December 14, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[RSColonel_131st]

Well, I tried buying myself, and I still dont get it?

Now I've played a movement battle (that should mean both sides get equal equipment, right?)

With the 500 points I had I could buy a Cavallary Platoon (3 teams + HQ), three Panzer III, and one Panzer II.

The Sovjets greeted me with up to 6 tanks, 4 of them light, 2 heavy, and at least 5 infantry teams.

Something doesn't compute here. Am I buying to "good" stuff?

Same in defense. I can barely manage 2 PAK's for the money, plus a FLAK SKFz, and the Sovjets will roll me over with 4 or 5 tanks plus lots of infantry.

I know I need to improve my tactics, too. But why am I always outnumbered?

[RSColonel_131st]

Hhmm, one example. Standard battle, Computer buys, Fog of War OFF.

Then I checked euqipment:

Sovjets got

2x BT-7 with 45mm Gun

2x T-26 with 45mm Gun

1x T-38/12 MG Carrier

Axis got

2x PSW 222 with 20mm Gun

1x PSW 221 just MG

1x Panzer 38 with 37mm Gun

Infantry pretty equal.

So, why am I outgunned?

[Pzman]

The 38T is better then the BTs and T-26 so you shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with them. Even in a head to head fight the 38T should win nine times out of ten.

[ December 14, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[WWB]

Dear Boy,

1) You were far from outgunned. That 38t owns those sucky early war soviet tanks, and the 222s can take them out too. Especially if you use mgs or mortars to button them, leaving them out of command and subject to 45 second delays.

2) Play scenarios. They tend to be a bit more interesting. Start with the advanced tutorial on the CD. Look at the depot (first link in my sig) for reviews to see what to play next.

WWB

[Björn Eriksson]

The best thing about playing the Germans is that their infantry squads have organic AT weapons (grenade bundles, panzerfausts etc.).

I deploy my infantry in cover close to possible enemy tank routes of advance and give them a Cover Arc of exactly 30 m (the range they will usually use their AT weapons at).

If an enemy tank comes close enough, my infantry squads will take it out and if it is enemy infantry that comes within 30 meters, I open fire at extremely close range, from an entrenched position.

The trick with AT guns is to never show them to your enemy until you have at least one safe kill.

I rarely use tanks when defending because AT-guns are both cheaper and easier to hide.

[argie]

Also, play human players. They are tough than the AI, but they can talk with you on what are you doing wrong and right.

[RSColonel_131st]

Ah, I see...said the blind.

I've just played another QB, movement battle, bought 4 Panzer 38 and two Panzer III's.

As luck would have it the map was almost free of trees, and good sightlines to the maximum range - firing started right from the get-go.

Result? 6 Sovjet Tanks destroyed in the first few rounds, 3 more later. Not a single one of my tanks lost.

I do know that the germans had better optics, better material, but less of it. Guess I must learn to extend combat range and to avoid taking them on with single tanks.

Seems that in wood land, or Villages, were the distances are closer, the Sovjets can gain an edge trough their overhelming numbers. But out in the open...no way.

Ah well, lots to learn. Thanks for the replys, I didn't know that the SPW and Panzer 38 are better than those russian tanks.

[Juju]

RSColonel, do you play early war QB's? Another reason why you would 'seem' to encounter such 'overwhelming odds' is that early in the war a lot of Russian troops will be conscripts. These basically suck, but they get plenty of them.

[RSColonel_131st]

Ah, that explains the high number of infantry they can field.

I'm still stunned because of that Tank Battle earlier.

I've lost so many tanks in the last two days, all at ranges of 400 meters or less...and today, when they had a chance to shoot across the map up to 1500, they totally waxed the sovjet armor. Impressive. Question now is...how do you use this advantage in the woods and citys...

[laxx]

Hi RSColonel_131st ,

I can understand your frustrations. I too like to play Germans in Defense.

I assume you are referring to Quick Battles than the Scenarios in the CD. If refering to scenarios, then speak to the individual authors, some of the scenarios are unbalanced because of historical accuracy.

For Quick Battles, A couple of pointers for ya:

- Despite what everyone says, Turn the Fog of War to Partial, Full or Extreme. Turning to NONE means that while you can see what the russkies are up to, the russkies can see you as well. It is particularly important in Defense, if you play Extreme Fog of War, you can shoot at the russian tanks for quite a long time before they figure out your position.

- Start with small byte-sized games first, ie. 300 points rather than > 1000 point games. At 300 points and with combined arms, the Russians *may* buy a t-70 light tank and maybe a valentine tank.

- For Defensive measures as Germans, it is better to buy anti-tank guns than Tanks. They are more accurate, and cheaper.

- Always choose you QB setup by yourself. And you can force the Russian to choose between Combines, Infantry, Mechanised or Armor.

- If you are up against T-34s or KVs in the early part of the war, the Germans did not really have anything up their sleeves against these uber-armor except Tank Hunters and clever tactics. Check out this forum under Tips and Tricks section, there is a thread on 1941 Infantry/Tank tactics against KVs. In addition, i have created a small movie on an anti-KV group comprising of sharpie, hunter and flammer ambushing a KV-1 tank. http://www.web.ms11.net/retro/Trg-Anti-Tank-Ger.mov

cheers!

laxx

[ December 14, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Frunze]

Also, in QBs, the Soviets often get to spend a larger share of their points on armor. Maybe 'cause historically they had more tanks?

You can even this up by setting a Soviet infantry division against a German mechanized division, though. Or you can buy more AT guns.

[RSColonel_131st]

Very interesting movie, Laxx.

How can your infantry avoid beeing seen until the Tank is next to them, though? I take it if he sees the moving there just once, the plan will fail...

Frunze, sounds like a possiple explanation.

Got to say this forum is most helpfull.

[Björn Eriksson]

Originally posted by Frunze:

Also, in QBs, the Soviets often get to spend a larger share of their points on armor. Maybe 'cause historically they had more tanks?

Perhaps it is because if the soviet player looses all his AT assets, wich usually are his tanks when attacking, he will have a hard time taking out his opponents tanks with nothing but molotovs?

Another possible explanation could be that german tankguns are good for destroying other tanks, while the lousy penetration of most soviet tankguns makes them more suited for an anti-infantry role.

IMHO the germans have a significant advantage over the soviets because of this and BFC might have given the soviets more armour points to balance the game better.

[laxx]

RS,

Short answer, you hide while the tank is hatch down. Also, turn the Fog of war to anything but None.

For a longer explanation, check out http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001374 for an explanation of the movie.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by laxx:

- Despite what everyone says, Turn the Fog of War to Partial, Full or Extreme. Turning to NONE means that while you can see what the russkies are up to, the russkies can see you as well.

Are you quite sure of that? AIR, BFC has stated that the computer opponent always plays at extreme FOW. The setting just applies to the human player.

Michael

[Ant]

How can your infantry avoid beeing seen until the Tank is next to them

As has been mentioned use the 'hide' command. It's also really usefull to combine that with a very small 'cover arc' command to prevent your troops from opening fire too early

Glad you took the plunge and bought this game RScolonel

[laxx]

Michael,

Thanks.

I have not read anywhere in this forum where BFC came out to state this. Do you have the reference for it ? I am going by the manual which states that the enemy will see you if you have FOW to none.

laxx

[argie]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by laxx:

- Despite what everyone says, Turn the Fog of War to Partial, Full or Extreme. Turning to NONE means that while you can see what the russkies are up to, the russkies can see you as well.

Are you quite sure of that? AIR, BFC has stated that the computer opponent always plays at extreme FOW. The setting just applies to the human player.

Michael</font>

[RSColonel_131st]

Small update...just had my first successfull defense battle against the Reds

This time I put my PAK 38 and the Panzer 38 at the outmost flanks, making sure they got a good elevated position where they could lay fire across the map.

I had one Target Point for Arty set up, and managed to take two of their tanks out with the 75mm Spotter.

Plus two or three tanks ran into my minefields and got bogged down.

I really need to think more "3d". So far I've often blocked my own sightlines with hills.

But hey, it's really, really fun when it works out.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Ariel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by laxx:

- Despite what everyone says, Turn the Fog of War to Partial, Full or Extreme. Turning to NONE means that while you can see what the russkies are up to, the russkies can see you as well.

Are you quite sure of that? AIR, BFC has stated that the computer opponent always plays at extreme FOW. The setting just applies to the human player.

Michael</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

This time I put my PAK 38 and the Panzer 38 at the outmost flanks, making sure they got a good elevated position where they could lay fire across the map.

That's fine that it worked out this time. But remember, the more of the map you can see, the more places you can be seen—and more importantly, shot—from. As a general rule, you want to engage one enemy at a time and not let them gang up on you. That's why I mentioned keyholing in my first post. Pick out an area where you think the enemy will have to cross, then place your AT asset where it will have a fairly narrow lane of fire across it. That way, you are more likely to be seen only by the tank you are shooting at.

Michael

[laxx]

Good point Michael. Not always easy to achieve as described but you can't be all things to all people. I usually prefer my tanks to work in pairs, assuming i can afford them.