Who's still playing operations?

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Bannon DC:

Teleporting units is ridiculous. Plain and simple.

Maps are full of pit falls. Terrain features, lack of roads, mud, choke points, etc. Logistics is as much a part of the battle as the fighting. To just ignore all of these would be missing part of the challenge.

Granted -- some ops can be tremendously huge and moving one hundred units forward over a large map is tedious. But still, it would be worse to just plunk a couple of companies in the line without making them risk an artillery barrage as they move forward... or being seen by the enemey and tipping off an intention to attack.

This is exactly why we (sometimes... depends on the opponents and Ops.) use the "Play where they Lay" rule. The attacker is forced to move his support weapons forward -In game-, where they can be interdicted with fire.

By the same token, the defender cannot beam units from a quiet sector to a threatened point, he must move them -in game-.

We make allowances for the quirky game engine. Units that are thrown out of their entrenchment/building and can't be put back in their proper spot are allowed to beam to a safe location. As stated in a previous post, it is frustrating... but that's the game engine.

Using the "Play Where they Lay" rule isn't for everyone... or for every Op., but in Franko's Anzio Op., and the "Juno Beach: Race for Caen" Op. where the Op. represents one day of fighting, we thought PWTL might give a more realistic simulation of the tactical problems/situation that commanders encountered historically in WW2.

Hopefully, the CMX2 game engine can handle Ops. in a more realistic way than the current one.

Salute,

Ken

[imported_no_one]

OK,I'll bite.Where does one get the PWTL rules set?

[imported_Iron_Duke]

I really enjoy making OP's and I've found that if you get the map right, it really helps out in gameplay and helps the fun factor.

One of the things that new OP designers need to keep in mind (for CMAK in particular) is that this is still a game with many limitations. So if the historical battle\OP you are reading about says " there was absolutely NO cover for us at all" that does NOT mean to create a flat, open, featurless, and dull battlefield.

You got to keep in mind that you want to entertain people and allow them to have some fun. Who the hell likes to get slaughtered trying to cross 3 or 4 hundred meters of open sand? or Grass? Not me and not many out there. Spice it up! No land is totally flat and has NO cover.

Get the map right and the rest falls into place.

My $.02

[Vadr]

I always enjoy your ops Iron Duke. Please do keep turning them out.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Iron_Duke:

Spice it up! No land is totally flat and has NO cover.

Well yes, but on the other hand, it might not have enough cover to hide a whole platoon - you can't plant individual trees, it has to be a 20m x 20m square. Too much microterrain is unrealistic as well.

[imported_Iron_Duke]

Thanks Vadr! I surely will.

"Well yes, but on the other hand, it might not have enough cover to hide a whole platoon - you can't plant individual trees, it has to be a 20m x 20m square. Too much microterrain is unrealistic as well."

I agree and with a combination of elevation changes and differing terrain types you can model an "open area" that still provides enough cover to be realistic and fun.

[Bannon DC]

Originally posted by no_one:

OK,I'll bite.Where does one get the PWTL rules set?

No One --

I invented my own "Play as they Lay" rules sometime back for an operation I designed ("Bleeding and Mopping Up" - available at TPG). While I am positive I did not invent the concept... and maybe not the term... here are the rules as I posted in a The Proving Grounds (TPG)thread. Keep in mind, that these rules were written for a specific operation... but the general idea should hold. Night battles (of which there were none in my operation) and large maps (mine was actually small) would have special considerations.

I'm plunking down these rules unedited... I don't feel like parsing through them... you get the jist.

I'm not aware of another posted set up rules... but I'm sure someone can elighten us.

== == == ==

SPECIAL BATTLE RULES: PLAY WHERE THEY LAY

You should think of this operation as one continuous action with small breaks in order to replenish ammunition and plan the next assault. Between battles, you should play your units where they lay from the last battle. The reasoning behind this is that the battlefield is under constant enemy observation and only a small amount of time goes by. It would not be possible to sneak a company of soldiers across a bridge without getting shot at. Another reason is you have to earn the territory. This is equally advantageous/disadvantageous to the attacker and defender. Plan your battles for the long-term.

A few exceptions to the rule:

· Artillery spotters can set up ANYWHERE between battles.

· Anti-tank guns and armor can relocate within 100m of their previous location. You should NOT cross bridges between battles. (Otherwise, you will need to walk or tow them to better locations during battle.)

· Warning – between battles, units that ended in the second level of buildings will be placed on the ground. You can place units back into the second level and move your units back to where they were before… or very close by. The general rule is to keep your infantry units very close to the same area and only place units in territory you actually fought for and earned.

· Russian reinforcements should only be set up in their original set up zone. On the map, this is the first block across the south edge of the map that contains “Heroes’ Park.” You will then need to advance these units from there.

· Locked down units (units that ended battle in close proximity to enemy units) – sometimes the computer will move these units between battles. You should leave them where they are. Exceptions can be made for units that the computer places in roads or otherwise completely exposed positions. You can move these units back to your own set up area as near as possible to their original location. (For example, your unit may end the battle in the good cover of a "woods" tile -- but the computer moves this unit between battles to an "open" or "road" tile. That is ridiculous. Since you can not move that "locked" unit near where it currently is -- the only choice is to move it back to your own territory.)

· Suggest you consult with your opponent to work out any questions regarding these rules prior to play.

* These rules are enforced through the "honor system." Be a good sport.

[imported_no_one]

Bannon DC,

Thanks for taking the time to respond--it was very helpful.I have been messing around with PWTL for the past several days.I admit that portions of the rule are much more realistic,but it's not without it's flaws.

I should clear up by saying that I normally play really large(huge)operations that take place over the course of more than one day(often featuring more than one night battle as well).I have yet to find a way to apply PWTL to these type battles.For the most part it works,but I am having a problem with knowing what to do in these situations:

1)Support units that were in good cover across the map that get dragged along when the map advances.Can this be assumed that during the short break in the action that they had begun moving?How far do I get to repostion them?I didn't want them to leave the cover they were in,so I am confused.

2)Why I can not move up both reinforcements,as well as,support units during a setup phase.The reason a lot of you do not know what I mean is my inability to explain things very well.When I attack,I attack across the map.My forces flow like honey to the path(s) of least resistance.As they advance,the enemy's units are engaged,destroyed,and the hole gets wider and wider.As a result,there are avenues of advance all across the map that have been cleared out.Another way of putting this is that the enemys AT network has been smashed,or something like that.It's the same thing as when/how I know that I can send support units--during a battle--through these avenues of advance without losing them.These "avenues" are oftentimes in dead or low areas of the map.IOW,areas that the defender can NOT see,and would be firing arty at in a blind manner.

3)How to deal with night-time and battles where it goes from adverse weather to good weather,or into adverse weather from good weather.I know that some of you don't understand why/how this matters,but it is just like you said: "The reasoning behind this is that the battlefield is under constant enemy observation and only a small amount of time goes by ".The thing is though,if they can't see,they can't see.I also think that the small breaks in fighting would sometimes be longer than a few minutes--especially when dealing with adverse weather.Think how many RL operations were delayed because of bad weather.

Anyway,I will continue to work on it in game.It adds a lot of tedious work to the already "huge" operations,but it does add another level of depth to operations.I have always been good at playing a few battles ahead,and this is just another application of that.

Thanks again for the response.

[ June 11, 2005, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: no_one ]

[Bannon DC]

Hello No One

Lost track of this thread, but came across it again.

My PWTL rules leave out many of your very good questions. The operation I designed takes place in one day with no night battles. Since my map was very small (only 800 x 800 playable area), many of the situations you raise don't occure. My battle had a canal that needed to be crossed which was one of the primary challenges on the map. Plus, supply was a real issue (it became more of a challenge than I thought it would for the attackers who had a good supply level).

PWTL makes sense when you are moving up a fresh company across an open field. If the enemy has some HMGs 700 to 1000m away, they may be able to force your men to take cover, disrupt the cohesion of the unit and cause a few casualties as well. But, as you mention, this won't happen at night or in bad weather, etc.

Since the game does not code PWTL, the rules will always be open to interpretation so they must be flexible. On the basic level, I would say play it as it makes realistic sense -- and it must not take the fun out of the game!! In a realistic situation, if you could walk your company down a road or cross a field with only a slight probability of getting shot at -- then go ahead and place the unit forward. If you have 20 new units as reinforcements and don't want to give orders to march them 1,000 meters -- then place them closer.

Also -- if the battles are short (15 to 20 turns), I would not want to waste too much time bringing up reinforcements.

Here's how I would approach your cases:

1)Support units that get dragged along. Nothing you can do about that. If they are near enough to the front line, place them in good cover and fight from there. I would keep them in more or less the same section of the map.. ie., right flank, center, left flank. If they are far back... place them in a location that could be approached out of enemy LOS and move them up from there.

2) For moving up units into breaches or catching up with the front line. This is a basic problem in any battle. If on the attack, you need to get the force to the striking point; if on defense, you need to get reinforcements to fill holes. If the battle takes place over "days" - you could easily get units to the right place and into the front line. If it takes place over "hours" (parts of a day), you may be subject to enemy action as you move... here I would say you would not be able to place immediately in the front line but in an area out of enemy LOS -- maybe 200 meters back.

3) Night battles. Definately more flexibility to move without enemy interdiction. Reinforcements can start much closer.

If you are playing the AI -- use whatever works for you without making it tedious. It is just another level of challenge. If playing H2H -- use whatever variations both players agree to.

Bannon