Calling all grogs - German ACs in Bulge?

[jbertles]

According to several books about the Bulge that I am reading, German armored cars were all over the place. Yet most armor books that I have mention that this late in the war the acs had been replaced by recon halftracks.

Anybody have any ideas as to numbers of acs vs. recon hts; also types of acs used during the Bulge?

[Richie]

Hi John,

Which areas are you specifically looking at?

Around Bastogne?

[jbertles]

Northern Shoulder mostly.

St. Vith, Losheim Gap, Skyline Drive, etc.

[JasonC]

Recon armor will appear more often in narratives once the front is broken because the recon battalions are sending out small columns looking for bridges and open road routes etc, and therefore are typically the first to run in to some roadblock. Most narratives are not detailed enough to actually distinguish PSWs from SPWs in this respect, though.

The Germans made only about 500 PSWs in 1944, compared to over 10000 SPWs. The new models were enough to equip the Pz Spl companies of a dozen PDs one-off, but Germany had several times that number by then. By spec, they were to have either 19 20mm 234/1s and 6 short 75mm 234/3s, or 25 50mm 234/2s (Puma). With only enough made to equip 3-4 the second way, and 8-10 the first (variation depending on how many sent as replacements etc).

Since the Ardennes offensive had units topped up to TOE more than most other times and ops, it is entirely possible that 2-4 of the engaged PDs had the above TOE load-outs of modern 234 series PSWs. But the average PD of that date cannot have had them - there simply were not enough made, some were made earlier in 1944 and would have been used and lost, etc.

Best bet for actual unit TOEs would be Panzertruppen or the divisional histories.

[Richie]

From "Men of Steel" Fast Group Knittel 1st SS (page 298 Appendix V) is comprised of in the way of Recce units...

2nd Recce Coy (Coblenz) SPW

3rd Recce Coy (Leidreiter) VW (14 VW's per platoon? specific info taken from "The Devils Adjutant") & 6 x Puma...

These books are written by Michael Reynolds. From memory many 'recon' units at that time utilised the SPW's as forward scouts simply because they had them.

[Richie]

Mind you, the Volksgrenadier units are described as having bicycles... not very bullet proof and I can't help but picture Dad's Army...

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Richie:

not very bullet proof...

Yeah but the behind armour effects are minimal (except for crew kills obviously)

[John Kettler]

jbertles,

Unfortunately, the U.S. soldiers writing the AARs weren't much on semantic distinctions, and it's quite clear that 251s and the like were often called "armored cars," a practice which carried over to numerous war movies and the TV series COMBAT.

Good luck with finding the real OOB details!

Regards,

John Kettler

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JasonC:

[snips]

Best bet for actual unit TOEs would be Panzertruppen or the divisional histories.

Although "Panzertruppen" does indeed give good orbat and strength information for armour units (and specialised armour elements, such as Funklenk and Sturmmorser companies), I can find no mention in it of any recce or panzergrenadier units.

All the best,

John.

[simovitch]

I found this information from the excellent Arnhem Website

Although the 10SS was not involved in the Ardennes fighting, these divisions were in the Arnhem area refitting for the fall and winter west wall campaigns. Although one can only assume that the TO&E's were similar for the I & II panzerkorps 3 months later in the Ardennes, I would say it's a safe bet.

Interesting that for the 10SS it is a combination of HT's and AC's

9 S.S. Aufklarung Abteilung

English name : Reconnaissance Battalion

Commander : Captain Viktor Graebner

Armament : 30 x Sdkfz 233+234

10 S.S. Aufklarung Abteilung

English name : Reconnaissance Battalion

Commander : Sturmbannfürer Brinkmann

Armament : 3 x Sdkfz 231/232, 6 x Sdkfz 222, 2 x Sdkfz 250/9, 17 x le.SPW 250, 9 x m.SPW 251

[simovitch]

What follows is some interesting stuff from a discussion going on here

Here are the authorized vehicles for a Panzer-Auklärungs-Abteilung as of 16 December 1944:

Stab with

13x SdKfz 234/1

3x SdKfz 234/3

7x SdKfz 251/3

1x SdKfz 251/8

2x SdKfz 251/11

1.Kompanie with

9x SdKfz 250/5

16x SdKfz 250/9

2.Kompanie with

22x SdKfz 250/1

2x SdKfz 250/3

4x SdKfz 250/7

2x SdKfz 250/8

3.Kompanie with

11x SdKfz 251/1

2x SdKfz 251/2

2x SdKfz 251/3

2x SdKfz 251/9

6x SdKfz 251/17

4. [schwere] Kompanie with

2x SdKfz 251/1

7x SdKfz 251/2

2x SdKfz 251/3

7x SdKfz 251/7

6x SdKfz 251/9

1x SdKfz 251/11

[jbertles]

Thanks gents, for all the info.

I have also found some interesting things.

The Roden (models) website had some useful background information about the various 8-rads.

Info from a Roden kit about the Sdkfz 232 (8-rad):

"War against the Soviet Union was a severe test for eight-wheeled armored vehicles - in autumn Russia's vast territory was a total mash of mud and heavy cars of the 8-Rad type turned out to be especially vulnerable in this environment. During the first half year of operations about 150 eight-wheeled cars were destroyed. In North Africa the Sd.Kfz. 232 (Fu) (8-Rad) served as a part of the African Corps under the command of Erwin Rommel. High air temperature was one of the most significant problems for armored cars and tanks, since due to tough climatic conditions technical failures were frequent. Eight-wheeled cars turned out to be the best vehicles for long raids in wide desert territory and were in service almost until the last days of DAK existence.

Sd.Kfz 232 (Fu) (8-Rad) production was stopped in 1943 when the Sd.Kfz 234 appeared, the glorious "Puma", the best armored car of WWII, which surpassed the Sd.Kfz 232 (Fu) (8-Rad) in every aspect of performance. Some of the Sd.Kfz. 232 (Fu) (8-Rad) were upgraded to a gun version, the Sd.Kfz 233 "Stummel", while others were upgraded with new radio communication equipment and returned to the front where they continued their military service. Several Sd.Kfz 232 (Fu) (8-Rad) fought for Berlin at the beginning of May 1945 during the severe street fights in the German capital - and as true soldiers they fought against the enemy until the end."

From another kit - 234/1, note low production total:

"Most of the 200 Sd.Kfz 234/1 produced up to the beginning of 1945 were sent to the Western Front and they fought there in the last battles of WWII."

Info from a Roden kit about the 234/3:

"Batch production began at the end of 1943 and continued up to the end of 1944. In total there was the opportunity to build only 88 units of the Sd.Kfz.234/3, as in 1944 the German war industry experienced widespread destruction from Allied bombing strikes, and any areas which had escaped, directed their efforts towards repairing the damage of existing armor and equipment."

The overwhelming majority of the 88 completed Sd.Kfz.234/3 served with the 116th Panzer Division which was at war in Normandy. "

Finally, this about the Puma:

"In 1943 the situation on the battlefield took a crucial turn, but not in the Germans' favor. German armored cars were being destroyed in combat; meanwhile the army required a large output of new tanks. Plants manufacturing the old Sd.Kfz.232 (8-Rad) armored car were not able to immediately switch production facilities to production of a new model. All of this became a serious obstacle for Sd.Kfz.234/2 (later nicknamed the Puma) production. The initial plan was to produce at least 80 cars per month by mid 1943, however this was never realized.

The Sd.Kfz.234/2 Puma had little in common with its predecessor. It was similar in concept but overall a completely new car. The powerful high-rotation Tatra 103 engine (eventually brought to operational reliability) allowed this armored car to make 90 km/h, and the huge 360 liter fuel tank increased its range to 1000 km. The Puma was the heaviest armored car of WWII, weighing over 11 tones. In comparison with the older Sd.Kfz.232 (8-Rad) cars the Puma had been slimmed down, particularly in respect of ground clearance, according to requirements. The Puma was armed with a 50-mm KwK39/1 gun with full 360 degree rotation, installed so as to allow a good vertical arc of fire. The armored body was several times thicker in comparison with the Sd.Kfz.232 (8-Rad), especially in front.

Sd.Kfz.234/2 Puma production ran into difficulties and only a rather small number of them was produced, 101. Nevertheless they did fight during WWII, with the panzer divisions in Normandy. This impressive car had not realized its full capability, but its combat performance showed exciting potential. After tests in the British and USA ordnance yards it was judged by the Allies to be the best armored car of the WWII era."

+++

Of course, we don't have access to the 234/4 in AK, but production total estimates range from 89-98.

It's clear to me that the TOEs are extremely optomistic and the production totals don't match up very well. It also seems clear that the under-powered engine in all the 8-rads meant that they weren't nearly as mobile in muddy terrain. The 250/9s were brought in to replace the 222s and supplement the 8-rads. But since the production of the 234 models was so slow, the remaining earlier 8-rads were kept going as long as possible, sometimes apparently by recycling old parts into newer models.

Of course, as a CM'r I abhor the the light ammo load of the 250/9, and even the PSWs, while loving the generous loadout of the 251/17. Sigh. Does that make me "gamey"?

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Best bet for actual unit TOEs would be Panzertruppen or the divisional histories.

Panzertruppen won't even mention non-tank AFV's in the OOB listings.