Jaska. Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 In CMBB, I prefer to play as Soviets. In doing so, I've witnessed several occasions where my tanks retreat when head-on against German tanks. This would make sense, if they were facing unkillable tanks, such as a T-34/76 head on with an über-kitty... But in a recent PBEM, I had BT-7's facing Pz III's with the 50 mm gun. Both were able to kill each other head-on, yet only my tanks retreated. His Germans stayed put. What is the cause of this ? My tanks had no reason to retreat as such. True, the enemy was a threat to them, but they were equally a threat to the Germans, right ? Or was their behaviour due to the experience level ? My tankers were regular, but as this was '41, they weren't of the same calibre as German regulars... Did they retreat because they panicked in the face of the enemy, or did they feel insecure otherwise ? An inquiring mind wants to know with future PBEMs in mind ! Edit : OK, now I realize this wasn't the correct forum, but anyways... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 I'm guessing the reason is probably because the Soviet ammunition in the early years was inferior and often broke up on contact with face hardened armour such as the Pz III has. Therefore the theoretical ability of the BT-7's 45mm AP to penetrate a Pz III is very marginal when taking into account the poor quality ammunition. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Grey Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Same thing will happen with other Russian crews as well - if a few IS-2 are faced by Tiger II´s, the IS-2 will retreat after a few shots - even veterans. One time in a TCP/IP game a freind of mine ordered one of his IS-2 to advanve straight to my positions. The crew got a glimpse of the gun barrel of one of my four Tiger II´s and instantly turned 180°, then drove right off the battlefield... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalgiris 1410 Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 All early Soviet Tanks are pretty thinly amoured with 15mm thick mostly. In the instance of your B-T7s they have only greater than that on their lower front hull. Paper thin and totally out gunned by Pz IIIs, which has 30mm of better quality armour that the 45mm tank guns with as mentioned poor AT ammo find extremely hard to penetrate at from 500 metres. Beyond that range during 1941 it is nearly impossible for all obsolete tanks to face. Less than 500m and the poor ammo messes with their confidence and it is still a daunting challenge for them. They have to retreat to save themselves! In fact Pz IICs out perfrom all those early Soviet tanks even the BT-7 despite the caliber differrence. Try Czech tanks, T-35s and T-38s for a more even fight for those old tanks. The Germans used plenty of them so it is historical to arrange such match ups. If you still want to fight against Pz IIIs with 50mm guns long or short you should use the T-70 which become quite common from early 1942. T-60 out guns the Pz IIs with its rate of fire for its longer 20mm gun if you compare them and it is very noticable at distance. So is the T-70 against the Pz III even with the long 50mm gun. They can't knock out T-70s until they come close enough for them to penetrate their thick armour. [ July 16, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalgiris 1410 Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Actually if you still want to fight with Soviet light armour during the first 6 months of the war, the best tanks are the OT-134 (flame T-26) with 37mm front turret armour thinkness and the T-26E (heavy) with 40mm of front armour. The BT-7M is the best BT but while still having only 15mm of armour it is slightly faster. You should match them up with Pz 35(t) and the Pz 38(t)A, since they both only have 25mm of poorer rivitted armour with a 37mm tank gun. They also have low stocks of ammo, but still you should out number them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan_gigante Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Duh! How would you ever expect untermensch like the Soviets to stand and fight? Of course the superiority of the pure-blooded Aryan race shows! This is merely common sense! Seriously though, people say that there is no built-in race bias, but I am skeptical. Not only do Russian tanks retreat against anything, but Germans seem to have no fear. In a recent game, a Pv IVH stood and fought against THREE IS-2s that were about 200 yards away. I was amazed that he actually killed one and distracted the others so a Panzerschrek could get another before he died. This was an extreme example, but I see that sort of thing a whole lot. I haven't noticed much of a race bias type thing in CMAK yet; of course, I play mostly infantry battles, so I don't see as much tank cower because I don't see many tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hpt. Lisse Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Yeah, a known bug. I once had a Su-152 waiting in ambush for something totally killable (StuG, I believe) and my tank retreated at the sight of the AFV (side shot, no less) without even firing the AP round in the breech. Needless to say, I was somewhat dismayed... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 As I once read: 15-20mm armour was not a good enough solution to the problem of getting a medium velocity 45mm gun into effective range. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Hey Guys! He just went and wiped out my Arayan Super race PzIIIs with a sneaky ambush with his BT7s. Could I ask you don't gibe him any help and send all your advice to my email address advising me how how my super PzIIIs were seriously meesed up. Thank you! George Mc ps any emails saying as I was complete f*****t to allow him to attack my flank will be deleted. My ego is crushed enough thank you. ) But in the words of that great Teutonic actor -"I'll be back" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David I Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think they retreated because they looked around and saw that they were surrounded by CMAK threads! DavidI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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