Sequence of events during phase II of Op Totalize

[Kingfish]

I wonder if anyone could lend a hand at clarifying the sequence of events on the afternoon of August 7th, 1944, starting from the midday bombing by the USAF up to last light. What I am particularly interested is the time the Polish 1st Armored Division entered combat in relation to the German counterattack.

As I understand it, the bombing occured at around 1300 hours, and the Poles left their starting positions just north of St. Aignan at 1335 hours

At 1335 hrs 24 Lancers and 2 Tk Regt, each reinf by one sqd of Dragoons, one sqn of Crabs, and one platoon of Engrs, started the attack as leading regts.

Source: Operation Report of 1st PAD

Meanwhile, the Germans had begun their counterattack earlier. Reynolds describes Meyer ordering his troops forward once he spotted the pathfinder aircraft overhead, so as to be out of the target area.

This to me indicates the Poles ran into the German counterattack just as it was beginning, and were then thrown back with heavy losses.

Again, from OR / 1st PAD:

At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556.

I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain.

Am I correct in the sequence of events, or did the Germans launch their attack even earlier, perhaps with Wittman's elements advancing first along the Caen-Falaise road while Prinz's Mark IVs stepping on the gas a little later and further east?

[ May 26, 2008, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[Kingfish]

I wonder if anyone could lend a hand at clarifying the sequence of events on the afternoon of August 7th, 1944, starting from the midday bombing by the USAF up to last light. What I am particularly interested is the time the Polish 1st Armored Division entered combat in relation to the German counterattack.

As I understand it, the bombing occured at around 1300 hours, and the Poles left their starting positions just north of St. Aignan at 1335 hours

At 1335 hrs 24 Lancers and 2 Tk Regt, each reinf by one sqd of Dragoons, one sqn of Crabs, and one platoon of Engrs, started the attack as leading regts.

Source: Operation Report of 1st PAD

Meanwhile, the Germans had begun their counterattack earlier. Reynolds describes Meyer ordering his troops forward once he spotted the pathfinder aircraft overhead, so as to be out of the target area.

This to me indicates the Poles ran into the German counterattack just as it was beginning, and were then thrown back with heavy losses.

Again, from OR / 1st PAD:

At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556.

I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain.

Am I correct in the sequence of events, or did the Germans launch their attack even earlier, perhaps with Wittman's elements advancing first along the Caen-Falaise road while Prinz's Mark IVs stepping on the gas a little later and further east?

[ May 26, 2008, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[Kingfish]

I wonder if anyone could lend a hand at clarifying the sequence of events on the afternoon of August 7th, 1944, starting from the midday bombing by the USAF up to last light. What I am particularly interested is the time the Polish 1st Armored Division entered combat in relation to the German counterattack.

As I understand it, the bombing occured at around 1300 hours, and the Poles left their starting positions just north of St. Aignan at 1335 hours

At 1335 hrs 24 Lancers and 2 Tk Regt, each reinf by one sqd of Dragoons, one sqn of Crabs, and one platoon of Engrs, started the attack as leading regts.

Source: Operation Report of 1st PAD

Meanwhile, the Germans had begun their counterattack earlier. Reynolds describes Meyer ordering his troops forward once he spotted the pathfinder aircraft overhead, so as to be out of the target area.

This to me indicates the Poles ran into the German counterattack just as it was beginning, and were then thrown back with heavy losses.

Again, from OR / 1st PAD:

At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556.

I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain.

Am I correct in the sequence of events, or did the Germans launch their attack even earlier, perhaps with Wittman's elements advancing first along the Caen-Falaise road while Prinz's Mark IVs stepping on the gas a little later and further east?

[ May 26, 2008, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[JonS]

Do you have Reid's book?

[JonS]

Do you have Reid's book?

[JonS]

Do you have Reid's book?

[Kingfish]

Sadly, no.

[Kingfish]

Sadly, no.

[Kingfish]

Sadly, no.

[JonS]

Ah. Give me a while.

[JonS]

Ah. Give me a while.

[JonS]

Ah. Give me a while.

[Noba]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I wonder if anyone could lend a hand at clarifying the sequence of events on the afternoon of August 7th, 1944, starting from the midday bombing by the USAF up to last light. What I am particularly interested is the time the Polish 1st Armored Division entered combat in relation to the German counterattack.

Kingfish: I don't have the book mentioned below, only a "Battle Zone-Normandy" Road To Falaise.

Meyer and Waldmuller had been to a small rise to the NE of Gaumesnil around noon and seen the massed armour waiting. Meyer then ordered Waldmuller's battlegroup to attack at 12:30 northwards towards St-Aignan. It states that Meyer and Waldmuller met around 1220 hours at Cintheaux finalising arrangements for the counter attack when he "noticed" the Pathfinder planes dropping flares. (The counter attack went in but after inflicting damage and taking losses the Germans were back at their starting positions (by 1400) just as the Allied armour began to move at 1355, maybe not 1335?)

As I understand it, the bombing occured at around 1300 hours, and the Poles left their starting positions just north of St. Aignan at 1335 hours </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />At 1335 hrs 24 Lancers and 2 Tk Regt, each reinf by one sqd of Dragoons, one sqn of Crabs, and one platoon of Engrs, started the attack as leading regts.

Source: Operation Report of 1st PAD

Meanwhile, the Germans had begun their counterattack earlier. Reynolds describes Meyer ordering his troops forward once he spotted the pathfinder aircraft overhead, so as to be out of the target area.

This to me indicates the Poles ran into the German counterattack just as it was beginning, and were then thrown back with heavy losses. </font>

[Noba]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I wonder if anyone could lend a hand at clarifying the sequence of events on the afternoon of August 7th, 1944, starting from the midday bombing by the USAF up to last light. What I am particularly interested is the time the Polish 1st Armored Division entered combat in relation to the German counterattack.

Kingfish: I don't have the book mentioned below, only a "Battle Zone-Normandy" Road To Falaise.

Meyer and Waldmuller had been to a small rise to the NE of Gaumesnil around noon and seen the massed armour waiting. Meyer then ordered Waldmuller's battlegroup to attack at 12:30 northwards towards St-Aignan. It states that Meyer and Waldmuller met around 1220 hours at Cintheaux finalising arrangements for the counter attack when he "noticed" the Pathfinder planes dropping flares. (The counter attack went in but after inflicting damage and taking losses the Germans were back at their starting positions (by 1400) just as the Allied armour began to move at 1355, maybe not 1335?)

As I understand it, the bombing occured at around 1300 hours, and the Poles left their starting positions just north of St. Aignan at 1335 hours </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />At 1335 hrs 24 Lancers and 2 Tk Regt, each reinf by one sqd of Dragoons, one sqn of Crabs, and one platoon of Engrs, started the attack as leading regts.

Source: Operation Report of 1st PAD

Meanwhile, the Germans had begun their counterattack earlier. Reynolds describes Meyer ordering his troops forward once he spotted the pathfinder aircraft overhead, so as to be out of the target area.

This to me indicates the Poles ran into the German counterattack just as it was beginning, and were then thrown back with heavy losses. </font>

[Noba]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I wonder if anyone could lend a hand at clarifying the sequence of events on the afternoon of August 7th, 1944, starting from the midday bombing by the USAF up to last light. What I am particularly interested is the time the Polish 1st Armored Division entered combat in relation to the German counterattack.

Kingfish: I don't have the book mentioned below, only a "Battle Zone-Normandy" Road To Falaise.

Meyer and Waldmuller had been to a small rise to the NE of Gaumesnil around noon and seen the massed armour waiting. Meyer then ordered Waldmuller's battlegroup to attack at 12:30 northwards towards St-Aignan. It states that Meyer and Waldmuller met around 1220 hours at Cintheaux finalising arrangements for the counter attack when he "noticed" the Pathfinder planes dropping flares. (The counter attack went in but after inflicting damage and taking losses the Germans were back at their starting positions (by 1400) just as the Allied armour began to move at 1355, maybe not 1335?)

As I understand it, the bombing occured at around 1300 hours, and the Poles left their starting positions just north of St. Aignan at 1335 hours </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />At 1335 hrs 24 Lancers and 2 Tk Regt, each reinf by one sqd of Dragoons, one sqn of Crabs, and one platoon of Engrs, started the attack as leading regts.

Source: Operation Report of 1st PAD

Meanwhile, the Germans had begun their counterattack earlier. Reynolds describes Meyer ordering his troops forward once he spotted the pathfinder aircraft overhead, so as to be out of the target area.

This to me indicates the Poles ran into the German counterattack just as it was beginning, and were then thrown back with heavy losses. </font>

[dieseltaylor]

I thought the 110556 reference was a grid reference - but then you have to wonder on which map.!

This I have just found with two War Department maps of 1943. They do not solve the riddle but they are zoomable right down and may be useful for other things.

http://broermapsonline.org/members/Europe/France/Normandy/

[dieseltaylor]

I thought the 110556 reference was a grid reference - but then you have to wonder on which map.!

This I have just found with two War Department maps of 1943. They do not solve the riddle but they are zoomable right down and may be useful for other things.

http://broermapsonline.org/members/Europe/France/Normandy/

[dieseltaylor]

I thought the 110556 reference was a grid reference - but then you have to wonder on which map.!

This I have just found with two War Department maps of 1943. They do not solve the riddle but they are zoomable right down and may be useful for other things.

http://broermapsonline.org/members/Europe/France/Normandy/

[John Kettler]

Kingfish,

Please be sure to bear in mind that German time and British time in reports aren't the same. This alone may save you a lot of stress. Have done a lot of digging, but haven't yet found the particulars on this.

I do own STEEL INFERNO, and according to it (p. 285), the bombing began at 2300 hours and was over by 2330, when the huge Allied columns began to roll. The bombed areas ran May-sur-Orne--Fontenay-le-Marmion on the right and la Hogue--Secqueville-la-Campagne on the left (p.282). Unlike in COBRA, no own goals were scored by the heavy bombers. Between the bombing and the 360 gun barrage (4000 yard front on Caen-Falaise Highway, 100 yard jump every minute) though, the wheels fell off the attack. Visibility was so bad vehicles collided, the bombers had to be aborted after only conducting two thirds of the plan, and cratering was so so severe that vehicles fell into them. The Germans "helped" by firing smoke shells into the miasma (p. 286).

Cut to

Start of Phase II. Air prep begins 1255 hours, with attack to commence at 1355. Bombing targets are Bretteville-sur-Laize, Gouvix, Hautmesnil, Cauvicourt and St. Sylvain. Two twelve-plane B-17

squadrons hit the Allies by mistake. In the first, a damaged bomber dropped short and everyone imitated. This cost the Poles 44 casualties. In the second, a target was misidentified, which was bad news for a 3rd Canadian ID march serial. All told, the bombing blunders cost 315 casualties, 55 vehicles and 4 guns (p. 290).

The Poles led with the 2nd Armoured on the left and the 24th Lancers on the right, each with a company of 10th Dragoons in support. 2 km southeast of St. Aignan, 2nd Armoured came under heavy fire at 1425 hours, and the other wing started getting pounded by artillery. At 1520, 2nd Armoured was under Panzer flank attack on its left. At 1610 Canadian Forces HQ was informed that the Germans had the St. Aignan area and lateral roads under fire. First encounter was apparently with Prinze's Panzer IVs, then with Jagdpanzer IVs, all part of KG Waldmuller. The Germans claimed 26 tanks, and Allied records show 24 replacement tanks and crews had to be sent to 2nd Armored after this clash. The 24th Lancers came to grief because someone failed to read the going map. As a result, the unit got trapped in a box valley and was fired on from Cintheaux by Wittmann and his force, losing some 14 tanks as a result (p. 291).

Hope this helps. There's much more in this excellent book.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 27, 2008, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

Kingfish,

Please be sure to bear in mind that German time and British time in reports aren't the same. This alone may save you a lot of stress. Have done a lot of digging, but haven't yet found the particulars on this.

I do own STEEL INFERNO, and according to it (p. 285), the bombing began at 2300 hours and was over by 2330, when the huge Allied columns began to roll. The bombed areas ran May-sur-Orne--Fontenay-le-Marmion on the right and la Hogue--Secqueville-la-Campagne on the left (p.282). Unlike in COBRA, no own goals were scored by the heavy bombers. Between the bombing and the 360 gun barrage (4000 yard front on Caen-Falaise Highway, 100 yard jump every minute) though, the wheels fell off the attack. Visibility was so bad vehicles collided, the bombers had to be aborted after only conducting two thirds of the plan, and cratering was so so severe that vehicles fell into them. The Germans "helped" by firing smoke shells into the miasma (p. 286).

Cut to

Start of Phase II. Air prep begins 1255 hours, with attack to commence at 1355. Bombing targets are Bretteville-sur-Laize, Gouvix, Hautmesnil, Cauvicourt and St. Sylvain. Two twelve-plane B-17

squadrons hit the Allies by mistake. In the first, a damaged bomber dropped short and everyone imitated. This cost the Poles 44 casualties. In the second, a target was misidentified, which was bad news for a 3rd Canadian ID march serial. All told, the bombing blunders cost 315 casualties, 55 vehicles and 4 guns (p. 290).

The Poles led with the 2nd Armoured on the left and the 24th Lancers on the right, each with a company of 10th Dragoons in support. 2 km southeast of St. Aignan, 2nd Armoured came under heavy fire at 1425 hours, and the other wing started getting pounded by artillery. At 1520, 2nd Armoured was under Panzer flank attack on its left. At 1610 Canadian Forces HQ was informed that the Germans had the St. Aignan area and lateral roads under fire. First encounter was apparently with Prinze's Panzer IVs, then with Jagdpanzer IVs, all part of KG Waldmuller. The Germans claimed 26 tanks, and Allied records show 24 replacement tanks and crews had to be sent to 2nd Armored after this clash. The 24th Lancers came to grief because someone failed to read the going map. As a result, the unit got trapped in a box valley and was fired on from Cintheaux by Wittmann and his force, losing some 14 tanks as a result (p. 291).

Hope this helps. There's much more in this excellent book.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 27, 2008, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

Kingfish,

Please be sure to bear in mind that German time and British time in reports aren't the same. This alone may save you a lot of stress. Have done a lot of digging, but haven't yet found the particulars on this.

I do own STEEL INFERNO, and according to it (p. 285), the bombing began at 2300 hours and was over by 2330, when the huge Allied columns began to roll. The bombed areas ran May-sur-Orne--Fontenay-le-Marmion on the right and la Hogue--Secqueville-la-Campagne on the left (p.282). Unlike in COBRA, no own goals were scored by the heavy bombers. Between the bombing and the 360 gun barrage (4000 yard front on Caen-Falaise Highway, 100 yard jump every minute) though, the wheels fell off the attack. Visibility was so bad vehicles collided, the bombers had to be aborted after only conducting two thirds of the plan, and cratering was so so severe that vehicles fell into them. The Germans "helped" by firing smoke shells into the miasma (p. 286).

Cut to

Start of Phase II. Air prep begins 1255 hours, with attack to commence at 1355. Bombing targets are Bretteville-sur-Laize, Gouvix, Hautmesnil, Cauvicourt and St. Sylvain. Two twelve-plane B-17

squadrons hit the Allies by mistake. In the first, a damaged bomber dropped short and everyone imitated. This cost the Poles 44 casualties. In the second, a target was misidentified, which was bad news for a 3rd Canadian ID march serial. All told, the bombing blunders cost 315 casualties, 55 vehicles and 4 guns (p. 290).

The Poles led with the 2nd Armoured on the left and the 24th Lancers on the right, each with a company of 10th Dragoons in support. 2 km southeast of St. Aignan, 2nd Armoured came under heavy fire at 1425 hours, and the other wing started getting pounded by artillery. At 1520, 2nd Armoured was under Panzer flank attack on its left. At 1610 Canadian Forces HQ was informed that the Germans had the St. Aignan area and lateral roads under fire. First encounter was apparently with Prinze's Panzer IVs, then with Jagdpanzer IVs, all part of KG Waldmuller. The Germans claimed 26 tanks, and Allied records show 24 replacement tanks and crews had to be sent to 2nd Armored after this clash. The 24th Lancers came to grief because someone failed to read the going map. As a result, the unit got trapped in a box valley and was fired on from Cintheaux by Wittmann and his force, losing some 14 tanks as a result (p. 291).

Hope this helps. There's much more in this excellent book.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 27, 2008, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[michael kenny]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556. I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain,

Here you go. The 10 line is the last vertical line on the left and the 55 horizontal line is the second from the top, 56 is the top one.

10(8)- 55(6)

[michael kenny]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556. I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain,

Here you go. The 10 line is the last vertical line on the left and the 55 horizontal line is the second from the top, 56 is the top one.

10(8)- 55(6)

[michael kenny]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556. I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain,

Here you go. The 10 line is the last vertical line on the left and the 55 horizontal line is the second from the top, 56 is the top one.

10(8)- 55(6)

[John Kettler]

Kingfish,

I hereby cede the grog contest to michael kenny!

Regards,

John Kettler