Cool link to the 752nd Armored Battalion history

[Wartgamer]

I recall a documentary (believe it was Italy) where an infantryman would gladly take his chances against MGs firing rounds at 1200 rpm than the sherman tanke supporting him that were KOd like tin cans off a fence. The AT weapons had too much precision and effect.

Artillery announces itself with the flight of the shell. MG fire, at all but the closest range, is somewhat a area fire weapon. Mortar fire, while not announcing itself with 'whistles' is decreased in effectiveness by the mere act of laying down.

A human, unlike a tank, can radiacally reduce its target height in less than a second. Tanks are big and while faster than a human, it takes awhile to reach that speed.

Tank crews are a team in a bigger sense than a squad of infantry. Throwing together different crewmen or worse new guys, really upsets the confidence of that team. Its a job specific team and everyone in that team is counting on the specific job getting done by one guy.

An infantry squad could take on a few guys and just delegate them to other soldiers. "Just do what I do" would help the new guy at least incorporate himself without bringing the whole squad to a grinding halt. And if the new guy flakes, then leave him. If a new driver was flaky, you bet that tank crew would be thinking about bailing as soon as he stalled the tank under fire. Ie. the whole weapons 'system' has failed due to one guy.

[Soddball]

bah.

[Soddball]

bah.

[Soddball]

bah.

[Wartgamer]

These stats seem to imply that officers, while hit only slightly more than most troops, die at a greatly incresed rate.

[Wartgamer]

These stats seem to imply that officers, while hit only slightly more than most troops, die at a greatly incresed rate.

[Wartgamer]

These stats seem to imply that officers, while hit only slightly more than most troops, die at a greatly incresed rate.

[Wartgamer]

One of the 'perks' to being a tanker was that your combat days in the line were not the same as an infantryman. Tanks need intensive maintenance, repair, etc. So while, it may be deadly to be in a Sherman tank, you arent thrown in the jackpot as much as infantry. Just moving back a thousand yards greatly decreases your exposure to most small arms and minimizes mortar fire.

I believe in the ETO, infantry riflemen had about a 50-60 % chance of being wounded and a 15% chance of being killed if they did a full tour from D Day till the end of the war.

[Wartgamer]

One of the 'perks' to being a tanker was that your combat days in the line were not the same as an infantryman. Tanks need intensive maintenance, repair, etc. So while, it may be deadly to be in a Sherman tank, you arent thrown in the jackpot as much as infantry. Just moving back a thousand yards greatly decreases your exposure to most small arms and minimizes mortar fire.

I believe in the ETO, infantry riflemen had about a 50-60 % chance of being wounded and a 15% chance of being killed if they did a full tour from D Day till the end of the war.

[Wartgamer]

One of the 'perks' to being a tanker was that your combat days in the line were not the same as an infantryman. Tanks need intensive maintenance, repair, etc. So while, it may be deadly to be in a Sherman tank, you arent thrown in the jackpot as much as infantry. Just moving back a thousand yards greatly decreases your exposure to most small arms and minimizes mortar fire.

I believe in the ETO, infantry riflemen had about a 50-60 % chance of being wounded and a 15% chance of being killed if they did a full tour from D Day till the end of the war.

[Wartgamer]

Take the case of infantry in good deep foxholes being attacked by mortars. Everyone is head down. After the attack, you might find that of the casualties, 70% were deaths. Why? In most cases, the only casualties were from direct hits in foxholes. While the number of foxholes hit was very small, it was very deadly when it occured.

But AT weapons are not imprecise. The tank is not being 'barraged' by 75mm high velocity shot. It is being targeted and in most cases, can't hide and its speed is not as great a defense under most circumstances.

So when its 'foxhole' gets hit, there's hell to pay. Especially when its armor is overmatched like shermens were. Its foxhole is conspicuous, noisy, and a recognizable target.

[ March 08, 2005, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Take the case of infantry in good deep foxholes being attacked by mortars. Everyone is head down. After the attack, you might find that of the casualties, 70% were deaths. Why? In most cases, the only casualties were from direct hits in foxholes. While the number of foxholes hit was very small, it was very deadly when it occured.

But AT weapons are not imprecise. The tank is not being 'barraged' by 75mm high velocity shot. It is being targeted and in most cases, can't hide and its speed is not as great a defense under most circumstances.

So when its 'foxhole' gets hit, there's hell to pay. Especially when its armor is overmatched like shermens were. Its foxhole is conspicuous, noisy, and a recognizable target.

[ March 08, 2005, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Take the case of infantry in good deep foxholes being attacked by mortars. Everyone is head down. After the attack, you might find that of the casualties, 70% were deaths. Why? In most cases, the only casualties were from direct hits in foxholes. While the number of foxholes hit was very small, it was very deadly when it occured.

But AT weapons are not imprecise. The tank is not being 'barraged' by 75mm high velocity shot. It is being targeted and in most cases, can't hide and its speed is not as great a defense under most circumstances.

So when its 'foxhole' gets hit, there's hell to pay. Especially when its armor is overmatched like shermens were. Its foxhole is conspicuous, noisy, and a recognizable target.

[ March 08, 2005, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by jeffsmith:

752nd

Combat Casualties

A total of 194 Purple Hearts were awarded to the men of the 752nd Tank Battalion during the 341-day combat period between 27 May 1944 and 2 May 1945. These awards were given to 178 men, of whom 16 received an Oak Leaf Cluster for their second award. Thirty-one Purple Hearts were awarded posthumously to those who were killed in combat. This analysis does not include those who were injured or killed in non-combat related incidents, as the Purple Heart is not awarded under those circumstances.

So 31 KIA and 194 WIA in 341 days.

The British analysis only concerned itself with tanks that were knocked out. And knocked out by specific causes.

My thought is that many tank commanders and other crewmen could be injured while unbuttoned, outside the vehicle. Since this is for the whole tank battalion, it might include non-tanker personnel.

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by jeffsmith:

752nd

Combat Casualties

A total of 194 Purple Hearts were awarded to the men of the 752nd Tank Battalion during the 341-day combat period between 27 May 1944 and 2 May 1945. These awards were given to 178 men, of whom 16 received an Oak Leaf Cluster for their second award. Thirty-one Purple Hearts were awarded posthumously to those who were killed in combat. This analysis does not include those who were injured or killed in non-combat related incidents, as the Purple Heart is not awarded under those circumstances.

So 31 KIA and 194 WIA in 341 days.

The British analysis only concerned itself with tanks that were knocked out. And knocked out by specific causes.

My thought is that many tank commanders and other crewmen could be injured while unbuttoned, outside the vehicle. Since this is for the whole tank battalion, it might include non-tanker personnel.

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by jeffsmith:

752nd

Combat Casualties

A total of 194 Purple Hearts were awarded to the men of the 752nd Tank Battalion during the 341-day combat period between 27 May 1944 and 2 May 1945. These awards were given to 178 men, of whom 16 received an Oak Leaf Cluster for their second award. Thirty-one Purple Hearts were awarded posthumously to those who were killed in combat. This analysis does not include those who were injured or killed in non-combat related incidents, as the Purple Heart is not awarded under those circumstances.

So 31 KIA and 194 WIA in 341 days.

The British analysis only concerned itself with tanks that were knocked out. And knocked out by specific causes.

My thought is that many tank commanders and other crewmen could be injured while unbuttoned, outside the vehicle. Since this is for the whole tank battalion, it might include non-tanker personnel.

[tar]

I liked the following paragraph from the 752nd website section about the battle of Cecina:

At 2030 hours, the five tanks from the 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd received word via radio that the Germans were launching a combined tank/infantry counterattack from the eastern side of Cecina. The various American accounts differ in their estimates of the strength of the German counterattack, ranging between 5 and 10 Tiger tanks and between a platoon and 200 infantry. From the German accounts, it is now known that the counterattacking strength consisted of two Tiger tanks, one StuG III, and less than 50 grenadiers from the I./SS-PGR 35 of the 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division RFSS.

It does provide an interesting insight into the real fog-of-war effects. 2 Tigers were reported after the battle as 5-10, and the infantry estimate ranged from a small under-report (1 platoon) to 4x the actual number.

[tar]

I liked the following paragraph from the 752nd website section about the battle of Cecina:

At 2030 hours, the five tanks from the 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd received word via radio that the Germans were launching a combined tank/infantry counterattack from the eastern side of Cecina. The various American accounts differ in their estimates of the strength of the German counterattack, ranging between 5 and 10 Tiger tanks and between a platoon and 200 infantry. From the German accounts, it is now known that the counterattacking strength consisted of two Tiger tanks, one StuG III, and less than 50 grenadiers from the I./SS-PGR 35 of the 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division RFSS.

It does provide an interesting insight into the real fog-of-war effects. 2 Tigers were reported after the battle as 5-10, and the infantry estimate ranged from a small under-report (1 platoon) to 4x the actual number.

[tar]

I liked the following paragraph from the 752nd website section about the battle of Cecina:

At 2030 hours, the five tanks from the 3rd Platoon of B Company of the 752nd received word via radio that the Germans were launching a combined tank/infantry counterattack from the eastern side of Cecina. The various American accounts differ in their estimates of the strength of the German counterattack, ranging between 5 and 10 Tiger tanks and between a platoon and 200 infantry. From the German accounts, it is now known that the counterattacking strength consisted of two Tiger tanks, one StuG III, and less than 50 grenadiers from the I./SS-PGR 35 of the 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division RFSS.

It does provide an interesting insight into the real fog-of-war effects. 2 Tigers were reported after the battle as 5-10, and the infantry estimate ranged from a small under-report (1 platoon) to 4x the actual number.

[gibsonm]

Wartgamer,

You are entitled to your opinion.

You just keep doing fire and movement across the open and I’ll travel in the type of vehicles that I’ve lived in for the last 20 years (refer my sig details).

It is the combat power generated by the two organisations fighting together that counts.

[gibsonm]

Wartgamer,

You are entitled to your opinion.

You just keep doing fire and movement across the open and I’ll travel in the type of vehicles that I’ve lived in for the last 20 years (refer my sig details).

It is the combat power generated by the two organisations fighting together that counts.

[gibsonm]

Wartgamer,

You are entitled to your opinion.

You just keep doing fire and movement across the open and I’ll travel in the type of vehicles that I’ve lived in for the last 20 years (refer my sig details).

It is the combat power generated by the two organisations fighting together that counts.

[Wartgamer]

And the vehicles of the last twenty years are so advanced in so many aspects that your opinion may be skewed.

And you are entitled to that opinion also I might add.

[Wartgamer]

And the vehicles of the last twenty years are so advanced in so many aspects that your opinion may be skewed.

And you are entitled to that opinion also I might add.

[Wartgamer]

And the vehicles of the last twenty years are so advanced in so many aspects that your opinion may be skewed.

And you are entitled to that opinion also I might add.