US infantry ammo load

[Spears]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004223179,00.html

look at that for an afterthought....... hardcore brits do it again..........without yanky fire support............dont want to hit are own troops do we now ......... like desert storm.....boznia.......afganistan......any other times u hit us with ur ****ED UP FIRE MISSIONS best trained in world my ass.....go fight the isralis in street fighting see how good u marines are then.........

From a regular british infantry soilder.

All the gear ........ no idea!!

Bayonet for me....what a lovely piece of metal

[Pvt Ryan]

USA is the most powerfull/strongest/richest/ most successfull country in the world...end of story. We are the defenders of Liberty. BTW we fuel our allied Isralis 4 billion a year....thx

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Spears:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004223179,00.html

look at that for an afterthought....... hardcore brits do it again..........without yanky fire support............dont want to hit are own troops do we now ......... like desert storm.....boznia.......afganistan......any other times u hit us with ur ****ED UP FIRE MISSIONS best trained in world my ass.....go fight the isralis in street fighting see how good u marines are then.........

From a regular british infantry soilder.

All the gear ........ no idea!!

Bayonet for me....what a lovely piece of metal

Generally speaking, coming down to bayonets means something has gone drastically wrong somewhere down the line, don't you think?

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Generally speaking, coming down to bayonets means something has gone drastically wrong somewhere down the line, don't you think?

LOL! "Fix bayonets" is not something an infantryman wants to hear!

I'm sorry about some of the posts against Volkov. He seems new and not aware of the hardcore "back-it-up-with-facts-or-you-do-not-know-squat" attitude so prevelant around here. *sigh* I get a little tired of it....Ah well it ain't no Democracy on this forum.

Personally, I'd like to see more veterans posting and not run off to the hills. I don't even mind the vibes of a crazy Marine!

$.02

-Sarge

[JonS]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

... the hardcore "back-it-up-with-facts-or-you-do-not-know-squat" attitude so prevelant around here. ...

I'd demur on your reading of it. I'd put it more like

"Wow,-your-personal-experience-is-very-interesting,-thanks-for-relating-it.-However-I-don't-believe-that-the-broad-sweeping-generalisations-you-are-trying-to-draw-from-it-are-valid .-Do-you-have-some-other-evidence-that-supports-what-you're-saying,-and-explains-how-it-is-relevant-to-a-different-time-and-place?-Because,-if-not,-I'm-afraid-your-suggestion-canno t-be-taken-seriously."

Not as catchy as yours, but then complex ideas seldom make for pithy slogans

Regards

JonS

[ May 18, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by JonS:

Not as catchy as yours, but then complex ideas seldom make for pithy slogans

You know what they say: Brevity is the soul of....

Nevermind, we'll get into a slogan war quick with this. Newbies are baptized by fire around here. I got mine...ah how I miss Fionn.

[Spears]

LOL! "Fix bayonets" is not something an infantryman wants to hear!

Isnt it????? obviously u dont know **** otherwise they wouldnt sign up to do it???? they`d be with the REMF`s u doughnut

Pvt Ryan

Junior Member

Member # 15089

posted May 18, 2004 09:51 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USA is the most powerfull/strongest/richest/ most successfull country in the world...end of story. We are the defenders of Liberty. BTW we fuel our allied Isralis 4 billion a year....thx

Jesus christ another one.........

I used to like americans but reading this forum ur all the same were the best, no 1 can beat us .................. aint that what hitler said???? but then he aint here no more is he.............

Defenders of liberty whos........ forgotton about afganistan already have we....... o yeah i forgot u have.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Spears:

LOL! "Fix bayonets" is not something an infantryman wants to hear!

Isnt it????? obviously u dont know ****

*sigh*

*grumble*

*profane*

Why does "Hitler" or "Nazi" always have to be inserted into the "I don't like Americans anymore..." posts?

Wait! Don't answer that. (It is rhetorical)

G'night mates.

-Sarge

[Bastables]

Originally posted by SgtDuke6216:

Oh and BTW,,,Who the Hell would enjoy drinking HOT tea in the HOT desert????? Not my bag man...But I got a feeling you Brit boys would....

And the people that lived in these hot places....

Look at what the Indians, Arabs and Asians prefer to drink in the sweltering heat: Tea and/or coffee.

Some could make a bollocks argument at how the British/empire are better at fitting in, or somfink.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by SgtDuke6216:

Can't imagine why..??? How does one find the time to eat hot chow in combat?

Because it was quickly realised that the inability of the US Army to bring hot food to the frontline in the winter of 44/45 (instead relying on the infantry man to help himself with cold rations) was not helping, maybe?

I also was not aware that tank crews are in combat 24 hours, 7 days a week.

[Robohn]

Didn't a British Tank shoot another British tank during the latest Gulf War? Why, yes they did. That does not mean British soldiers are bad, it just means like every country in the world, soldiers screw up in combat. At least US guys figure out what happened and admit to it. Most countries don't know what the hell they hit. Or, they are just such bad shots that friendly fire isn't an issue.

Also, if you didn't notice we do still have troops helping out in Afghanistan. So no, we have not forgotten about them. But then if we have to stay permanently in every country we liberate, shouldn't we still have troops in France?

Oh and Spears, its spelled "soldier" "Bosnia" and "Afghanistan". If you are a "soldier" shouldn't you be able to spell it? Or did the British education system miss that in your case? I know you have some words like colour, and defence, but "soilder" I don't think is one of those different words in the UK.

Most of the British troops I've met were very friendly and professional. I'm glad to go into combat with them anytime.

[ May 19, 2004, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Robohn ]

[Big Jim]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the SA-80 A2, standard British army assault rifle, doesn't fit a bayonet on the end.

I enjoy talking to veterans, but when anyone talks like a propaganda leaflet I think a lot of people feel the need to set that person straight. Volkov was a little cranky, but everyone is entitled to an opinion- and everyone is entitled to disagree.

I must admit, this probably wouldn't have turned into a German bashing thread if the question had been 'German infantry ammo loadout'!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by btm:

I read Van Creveld's Fighting Power and was unimpressed.

I've also read the recent refutations of Van Creveld and his school of thought:

Closing with the Enemy by Doubler

The G.I. Offensive in Europe by Mansoor

American Soldiers by Kindsvatter

And then there's When the Odds were Even by Bonn, and Draftee Division by Brown.

So don't pretend that Van Creveld's work, or even S.L.A. Marshall's work are universally accepted or even respected.

Needless to say, the debate is not going to resolved anytime soon. I highly doubt that it will be resolved in this forum, at that.

I suspect that the pervasive anti-American tone will persist in "scholarly" and foreign histories for the forseeable future, just as it always has. In fact, such sentiment is hardly the exclusive domain of military history.

On the other hand, there are significant numbers of Americans who still consider the British to be pompous, tea-swilling bums who had to be pried from their crumpets in order to take the fight to the enemy.

Well I have not read 'When the odds were even', but if the fundamental criticism of it on site (i.e. that he did not use German records for the strength determination of the German side, but instead US intel records) is correct, then his comparative analysis will make nice toilet paper, but not advance the debate about whether van Creveld is right or not.

Here is a quote, that, if it correctly states what Bonn is doing in his work, would consign it to the partisan, do not bother bother reading pile of books:

Bonn's flawed methodology in approaching his topic is apparent very early in the book. For example, he asserts that the personnel strength of German units (which he claims are not available from German sources) may be gleaned from American sources. This can be done, according to Bonn, by "meticulously screening available U.S. intelligence reports" and comparing these to the estimates provided by German veterans of the Vosges campaign in the manuscripts they wrote for the U.S. Army in the immediate postwar era. The numbers thus yielded are then cross-referenced with German tables of organization and equipment to give "accurate hard quantities or numbers".

I have read Dobler's 'Closing with the enemy', and I think he is putting a positive gloss on things. So the US Army was good at learning things, see how they developed in MOUT between Brest and Aachen. Err well, see how by the time of Brest, almost two years into the actual fighting in the ETO, they still needed to figure out the basics, would be an equally biased reply to that.

The link is part of the Mythos Revisited site on Military History Online, which makes for some interesting reading.

As people who know my posting here will know, I am not one of the 'The Wehrmacht rocked so bad, it hurt' ilk. Quite on the contrary in fact. But on the other hand, I do not expect the analysis of WW II history to be advanced if the Wehrmacht adulation drivel is replaced by equally misguided US Army adulation drivel.

Oh, and can we leave the Iraq bollocks to the General Forum? Thank you.

[ May 19, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[flamingknives]

The SA80A2 will mount a bayonet, but not when it is fitted with an AG36 grenade launcher. The Minimi and the LSW will not mount a bayonet either, so that leaves one person per infantry fireteam who can fix bayonets. Anyway, that's enough on that. Start a thread in the GF if you want more.

Back to more relevant stuff: I'd be leery of using one side's intellegance on the other as gospel truth, even if one is comparing it to some other source. Quantity does not make up for quality. To illustrate this, if one is to find the WWII US field manual on the German army, there are a number of bits of info that are flat wrong. I imagine that the situation was the same for all sides (25pdrs as "automatic artillery", anyone?) but there are more US documents so usefully scanned in and hosted on the web.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by SgtDuke6216:

Oh and BTW,,,Who the Hell would enjoy drinking HOT tea in the HOT desert????? Not my bag man...But I got a feeling you Brit boys would....

AFAIK (someone correct me if I am wrong), drinking warm, not hot beverages in a hot climate is better than drinking cold beverages. As I was told, this is because the higher temperature differential makes you break out in sweat, i.e. you loose fluid more quickly when you drink ice-cold water, rather then a warm (not hot) cup of tea.

[jwxspoon]

I can tell you that hot food or even a hot drink is an unbelievable luxury when one has been living in rough conditions as a soldier for a while.

I can remember doing some joint training with 2 para in the 80's and we were absolutely amazed at how the Brit light infantry just took it asa matter of ocurse that they could have hot food AND be good soldiers....we never could understand why some of our own officers didn't get that idea...

In combat the tendency is to take a lot more ammo than you need. "Just in case". I think I only fired 2 magazines of ammunition in my first real combat experience, but damned if I didn't have 15 loaded mags, plus another bandolier that I could load the empty magazines with, plus an M60 belt for the 60 guy, plus a LAW, plus grenades, plus 2-3 60mm mortar rounds for the weapons platoon, plus batteries for my radio, plus of course, my URC-101 radio (a heavy bitch). Plus water, some broken down LRRP's and MRE's, and Binos, laser rangefinder, etc. And, of course, a bayonet AND a couple of backup knives. hehe

jw

[Spears]

I went in the infantry cos its what i wanted to do ........ if i wanted to be a teacher i would of gone to college/university ...... and no spelling aint important reading is u tit ....... but i can shoot .... can u ...o dont answer that all u yanks were born in a barn and can shoot right?? Born with a cigar in ur mouth, m60 round the hip.... u watched rambo to much guys ........ and whats this bollox id share a trench with u any time????? lol have u met him ... probably not....... (he said he cant shoot at people no more) ..... dont read very well do u .... i wouldnt share a trench with someone who cant shoot at enemy, but then im not a yank am i

Turns his back and walks away

[flamingknives]

Turns his back and walks away

Fine. Spelling is important because otherwise no-one can read the gibberish you write. You've got a full keyboard in front of you, use it. This isn't a text message.

I think you and volkov would get along quite well. You act the same.

[Lithuanian]

Originally posted by Spears:

and whats this bollox id share a trench with u any time????? lol have u met him ... probably not....... (he said he cant shoot at people no more) ..... dont read very well do u .... i wouldnt share a trench with someone who cant shoot at enemy, but then im not a yank am i

Turns his back and walks away

I suspect that if placed in a situation where he had to, he would probably still do just fine. After all, a certain Sergeant York didn't want to shoot at people.

[SgtDuke6216]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Turns his back and walks away

Fine. Spelling is important because otherwise no-one can read the gibberish you write. You've got a full keyboard in front of you, use it. This isn't a text message.

I think you and volkov would get along quite well. You act the same. </font>

[SgtDuke6216]

Originally posted by Big Jim:

I must admit, this probably wouldn't have turned into a German bashing thread if the question had been 'German infantry ammo loadout'! [/QB]

Speaking of which....What was there load out, I am guessing between the 4 total ammo compartments, they were able to put (4) 5rd strippers in each for a total of 80 rounds. Is this correct? It seems as if the German Army build its squads around the MG-34. Or am I wrong? 1200rpm is a lot of lead that keeps you enemies head down so you can advance and huck greandes. Again I may be wrong. Sorry gents I do not posess any good books on the German Army.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

[snips]

AFAIK (someone correct me if I am wrong), drinking warm, not hot beverages in a hot climate is better than drinking cold beverages. As I was told, this is because the higher temperature differential makes you break out in sweat, i.e. you loose fluid more quickly when you drink ice-cold water, rather then a warm (not hot) cup of tea.

Years and years ago, back in the days when we had supersonic passenger aircraft, possibly even as far back as when men were still walking on the moon, I read a piece in the New Scientist or some similar pop-science rag that said that some experiments done at the University of Somewhere (and this was in the days when polytechnics weren't Universities in the UK) showed that the body's core temperature was reduced by about a degree Celsius (or one Kelvin in the new money) after drinking a cold or a hot drink, but that it stayed lower for much longer after the hot drink.

I've never heard mention of drinking tea warm, but it strikes me as disgusting, and as far as I can tell the inhabitants of hot countries drink their tea hot.

Coming next: Why black is a good colour to wear in hot countries.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by SgtDuke6216:

That is certainly the impression one gets.

[SgtDuke6216]

I do remember the Turks, Afgans, Saudis, and Baharianians all drank there tea hot. Not me man! Don't even like tea, yuk

[SgtDuke6216]

Ok That's kind of what I was thinking. But I did want to write anything that would be attacked like vultures to a fresh kill....It seems to me that (mostly from talking w/ WW2 US Army vets at the VFW here) this was the case. They tell me that they would concentrate their automatic weapons on the MGs position (or were they thought) then advance fire teams, while under covering fire..but they also tell me that they had to learn this the hard way, and that some men would "bolt" or "freeze" when they came under the "burping" of an MG-34. As far as the Germans losing, I would say that was a part, especially becasue the need for raw materials and the constant air raids on infastructure. I would venture to say that they would have won if a mad man, Bohemian Coporal was not making the important decisions. He should have listened to his Army Generals and not the SS ones, but thank God he did) (sorry for the religious reference) And the whole German concept of military leadership did not allow much room for initaitive.

But I am sure I will see a post soon saying I am wrong. LOL, And quite frankly by reading this post it seems as if there are two sides, One that says the US Army was terrible in ETO and the Other side says that they all were super soldiers. I'll call it the "historians" and the "heros". Both of which need to sit down and look at both sides of the stories then come to a conclusion, and not one that necessarily supports thier own personnal beliefs. But I don't know I thought we are to be impartial...probably wrong there too....

Hey here's one for you all...French Ammo load? I bet the had plenty of it because they sure didn't use much against the Germans.....(oh boy here we go.."Ding" round 5 begins!)