GreenAsJade Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Has anyone noticed the outstanding concealment that vines have to offer? I just played "A Mountain Retreat" twice (PBEM), and both times the attacker managed to get within 30-50m of my defensive position (IE to the edge of the vines) completely undetected. It's something that scenario designers need to be careful of, lest they inadvertently give the attacker a rather unexpected advantage! GaJ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Originally posted by GreenAsJade: Has anyone noticed the outstanding concealment that vines have to offer? I just played "A Mountain Retreat" twice (PBEM), and both times the attacker managed to get within 30-50m of my defensive position (IE to the edge of the vines) completely undetected. It's something that scenario designers need to be careful of, lest they inadvertently give the attacker a rather unexpected advantage! GaJ. Actually, concealment in vineyards terrain is about the worst possible in the game. I have not played this scenario so I don't know what exactly the terrain looks like, but you are likely doing something wrong if you couldn't spot him that close, even if he was sneaking. If sneaking on a clear day, you should be able to spot him with ease up to 125 meters out. If he's moving on a clear day you should be able to spot him from 235 meters out. Are you sure you had LOS while he moved up through the vineyard? i.e. he was sneaking up a slope? Weather and time of day have a huge impact on spotting. Was it raining? night? foggy? Were you "hiding" your squads that could see? Never hide your squads on defense unless the enemy is right on top of you. Keep them up with small cover arcs so they won't fire. This way they will remain unseen all the same, and they can see. The direction you're rotated also makes a big difference in spotting. If you're even facing sideways to an approaching enemy your ability to spot him is reduced significantly. Make sure your "eyes" are up and covering all directions. [ March 13, 2004, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 That all sounds like great advice! Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 BTW, it was raining, I was hiding but facing the right way. I had good-medium LOS over the whole approach area. IE his men walked right under my light blue spotting line without me seeing them. This "Don't hide, vines are poor concealment" is something that warrants a test, methinks! (Scrabbles away to fire up the scenario editor...) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 GreenAsJade, I had troops shot to pieces in vine terrain while playing a Crete scenario (was German FJ) during the CMAK Sneak Preview. In daylight, they're only slightly better than open ground. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted March 14, 2004 Author Share Posted March 14, 2004 It makes sense that they are poor _cover_, but my experience in A Mountain Retreat was that they are excellent _concealment_. Still - this is all talk: I will try it out when I have a moment. BTW, what is the thinking on WP's advice not to hide on defense? Goes against my instincts!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Hiding was your main problem, I think. You can't hide and spot well at the same time. There is a noticeable difference in spotting ability between troops who are hiding and those who aren't. Vineyards are like brush as far as cover and concealment. Treeburst155 out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walpurgis nacht Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by GreenAsJade: It makes sense that they are poor _cover_, but my experience in A Mountain Retreat was that they are excellent _concealment_. Still - this is all talk: I will try it out when I have a moment. BTW, what is the thinking on WP's advice not to hide on defense? Goes against my instincts!! Treeburst has it. Run your own tests if you like to see. Basically, unless you are defending positions without foxholes in vineyards, wheatfields, brush, or rocky (poor concealment terrain), you want to keep your defenders up at all times to "see". Give them tiny forward cover arcs to keep them from firing. Do this with EVERYTHING . . AT guns, HMGS, whatever. You will not be spotted, unless you open fire, or unless the enemy gets within 10-20 meters. Hope that helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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