A Question of Force Selection

[Platehead]

I need help with force selection. I was sent a PBEM setup for an Allied Attack. I had British.

3000 pt Allied Attack

Map was medium size

Large hills

Moderate trees

Village

March 1944

Italy

Damp

Cool

Overcast

Though I didn't know at the time here are the German defenders.

1 Company of Infantry

6 150mm Infantry Guns

4 76mm Captured AT Guns

4 20mm Flak

10 Barbed Wire

19 Mines

3 Trenches

My forces

2 Companies Infantry

8 Sherman III (Mid)

3 Churchill V

I realized later I should have at least taken some engineers.

[flamingknives]

You want some lovely 3" mortars to take care of the enemy guns and possibly fewer tanks and more (some?) artillery support. What experience level were you working with?

[Platehead]

Sorry, I also had three FO's.

1 3" Mortars 180 rds

1 4.2" Mortars 80 rds

1 4.5" Guns 40 rds

All the guns were in trenches up on hills.

I've never had much luck with artillery against trenches.

[Platehead]

Experience level was high. Lots of veteran and crack troops.

[...................................]

FWIW I'd say you were too tank heavy, and too much off map arty. I would have taken a lot more direct support. As already mentioned Brit 3" mortars are very useful.

If attacking, low price guns firing direct at the first reasonable thing spotted can force a defender to use his limited artillery, or reveal some major asset which would otherwise cause a lot of problems. If no clear sight is available at the start, tow them into the reverse of woods, and push them if you have to. If they are commanded by someone with a double morale bonus, they will take an awful lot of killing. I've had opponents empty on-map mortars without result trying to remove them, and it kinda reverses the whole attack/defense situation.

Snipers and vickers HMGs with good fields of view are worth the money. Have a few independent Bren teams for scouting - cheap and can fight back if needed.

Looking at the other side they are very gun heavy, and waste any AT capable purchases you make by not having any AFVs. However, a support heavy infantry attack should do well against them. If the opponent has a lot of tanks, with good visibility (check your air availability) and the terrain is open, then attacking him with only limited tanks and off map arty is a problem, but hopefully you will have some idea if this is likely to be the situation.

Support and infantry is less of a gamble than tanks. I'd stick to the low ground, avoid anywhere that looks like a good 'reverse slope' location for the defender, and go with sucessive waves against the same point rather than in multiple places. Don't mass together, and don't split up attacking his line in several areas, rather attack in waves against the same point.

First attack could be by part of a platoon with split squads, and then up the tempo from there with your direct support stuff overlooking the breakthrough area, throwing in new platoons every three or four turns or so.

It isn't foolproof, but it leaves much less to chance and forces a defender to react to you. Tank heavy attacks are a pure gamble, and off map arty isn't as useful as it used to be in the old CMBO days. So max out your direct support and then put it into infantry, and perhaps save enough for a couple of tanks to be sent in near the end game, not before.

Get used to attacking without off map arty, it's never worth the points if there is even modest cover available for you to attack through, and most opponents are expecting you to use it and deploy accordingly anyway.

I bet there are other ways to skin that particular cat, but I hope that some of my ravings have been useful, FWIW they have done me very well

[ June 27, 2004, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Pheasant Plucker ]

[Cthulhu Dreams]

You needed on map mortars.

3 81 MM mortars firing for one turn will kill a gun in a trench if you have an ID on it's position.

However FO's are totally useless at exactly the same operation.

Engineers might have been useful, but once you killed the AT assets with mortars, you could just stand off with the tanks and blow him to peices.

[flamingknives]

Especially if you expect such a large number of heavy HE (historically, only 2 150mm guns were issued per regiment) you would probably be better served with regular or vet infantry - a 150mm shell landing in crack infantry does a huge amount of damage to your total force.

The British also have access to cheap recon vehicles (Bren gun carriers, Stuart Recce and Daimler Dingo) for 25-40 pts at regular. These are good a ferreting out guns when they fire at your main AFVs futher back.

For 3000 pts, your opponent is phenomenally low on infantry. he seems to be relying on his heavy guns to stop your infantry. Smoke or on map mortars on his guns would allow you to close and achieve fire superiority with infantry.

[...................................]

Thinking about the points, those forces mentioned don't seem like they would cost 3,000 for a defender or 4,500 for an attacker. Do you mean battalions instead of companies?

[Platehead]

Rarity was off.

It was 3000 pts for the attacker and I'm guessing 2000 pts for the defender.

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to test the on map 3" mortars. If they can take out guns in trenches that would solve my biggest problem. There was a trench on hill on his right flank that had two 150mm IG's and two captured 76mm AT gun's that has LOS to a good portion of the map.

And taking fewer tanks with carriers or something light like that would be helpful too.

Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it.

[flamingknives]

Depending on wind condition, the answer could have been to drop one of the mortar modules on it as smoke, allowing you to advance into dead ground with tanks and infantry.

Universal carrier are a must for 3" mortars as it means that you can scoot them up to a good firing position with an HQ spotting over a crest for them.

Personally, I only rely on mortars killing guns in foxholes or woods (or both). If I want to kill a gun in a trench, I prefer to get up to it and jump repeatedly on it with infantry.

[Scheer]

I think that tanks are to fragile in my hands. My infantry usually does better, because infantry is more robust than tanks.

I think In CMAK infantry heavy forces do better than tank heavy on most maps.Those tips on onboard mortars are good. You also could have bought one cheap mortar FO more and lay smoke perhaps to cover your approach.

[Carl Puppchen]

One thing to note - unless you know in advance that your opponent has ZERO tanks, your "tank heavy" mix may have been prudent. If your opponent has a couple of Panthers your large # of churchills would be needed to knock him out. There is nothing more demoralizing than trying to attack tanks with infantry, especially if your opponent has tanks armed with cannister (this happens a lot with T34's on the Russian front).

The churchills are fine for slow recon since they can take a lot of fire without going down - the brens and other HT's would have been in flames instantly when faced with 76mm AT guns or the 150mm IG weapons. Just make sure you have lots of time because they are slllllooooowwwww, especially over rough terrain.

I totally agree with the on map artillery comment - there is a thread showing that off map artillery is not effective vs. units in trenches (started by me in the tips and tricks section).

Best of luck!!

[JonS]

How To Attack Like The British

This was originally written (almost exactly two years ago!) for CMBO, but is largely correct for the UK and CW in Italy. Bear in mind, though, that it is intended for an 'anyday, 194x' battle, and makes no attempt to optimise value, firepower, or any other form of l337|/|3$s. So, when confronted with a divisions worth of 150mm sIGs, you might not do all that well if adhering to the above 'rules'.

Regards

JonS

[JonS]

Originally posted by Carl Puppchen:

there is a thread showing that off map artillery is not effective vs. units in trenches (started by me in the tips and tricks section).

Which is as it should be. Although, it might be nice if suppression effects took longer to recover from.

Jon

[Platehead]

Thanks again for the tips. I tested 3" mortars against guns in trenches. Took them out every time with six shot or less. Just like you said though, they are slower than molasses. On map mortars have gained a much higher priority for me!

[Guest Mike]

7.2" guns are fun for the British - they have no trouble taking out guns in trenches, and everything else within a score or 2 yards too!

Of course they take a while to arrive - that's where you learn patience.

they usually fire 3-4 rounds on a target in a turn, nd that's normally all you require - then you march them onto the next target.

At 3000 Pts a single observer (25 rounds, about 380 pts IIRC) would be well worth it IMO.

[Beta1]

wouldnt have gone with high exp troops. Probably would have taken regulars which would give me maybe 4 companies. 2 batteries of 3x3" mortars, probably a pair of 6pdr AT gun and 25pdr Howitzers (or maybe a 75mm pack howitzer if available. Plenty of MGs/Brens maybe 2-3 per company). If there are HT/81mm mortar carriers available I would swap the 2 batteries for a 3 of them as they have massive ammo loads and as long as you keep them in dead ground are pretty lethal.

Would have not bothered with the off board, maybe kept the 4.5" or 4.2" FO only.

Most people I play with tend to expect tank heavy attacks and so you see AT heavy defences, often lots of 75mm PAK and a couple of thick fronted AFVs. As a result when attacking I tend to try and go asymetric and go infantry heavy. I normally take a couple of 6pdrs anyway because if they get T rounds they can kill anything and are dirt cheap. I would normally take very few tanks, probably one or 2 TDs and a couple of very cheap HE chuckers. As the brits maybe a couple of fireflies and a cromwell with the 90mm gun. the fireflies are there to kill anything that must be killed and the cromwell is there to take on infantry strongpoints with its big gun.

If theres 3 flags attack 1 in strength and the next nearest with everything else, dont try and spread out on all three (although its always worth testing the defense at an outlieing flags with a couple of scouts incase theres an undefended one)

[Other Means]

the "lorried infantry battalion" is a well rounded force. build round that with as many AFV's as you can, then spend what you can on onboard mortars.

light flak guns provide great suppression as well.

with this force you get 6 6pdr's, sharpshooters, infantry & carriers. you can embark the guns on the UC's & claim patches of trees, push the guns through & you have AT cover for your AFV's. these can then be used more boldly, especially if you've got many 3" mortars to hammer any ATG's which open up.

you've got AFV's to kill his MG42's infantry to take ground, ATG's to kill his AFV's (tell him Hetzers are gamey) & mortars to kill his AT guns. sharpshooters are ideal for scouting as well. MTC & hide with a 180 degree 170m covered arc in front. you also get 3" & 4.2" OBA FO's.

{edited for my flamingpicky's blood pressure}

[ June 29, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Other Means ]

[flamingknives]

...you get 6 6lb'ers,...

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

6 pdr or pr is the correct nomenclature.

6 lber is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The integral spotters in a lorried inf. battalion are a 3" mortar and a 4.2" mortar. The latter and the MMG platoons represent attached units from the MMG unit in the division.

British Infantry battalions of any sort get integral pioneers too.