Shooting AP rounds blindly through dust?

[Quenaelin]

I haven't visited this forum a while, but now when I bought CMAK I like to ask one questing which I didn't find when I did some searching. Is it possible to shoot AP rounds through dust clouds, like it is possible to shoot HE rounds? I had this problem when my tank could not see tank in 200m front of him becouse of dust, at first there was no dust and I was thinking this was clear suprise shot behing building, enemy wasn't seeing my tank. Then I come out from cover and try to began shooting, but my tank just stands still and I figure out that this could be new dust effect in action. In those two or three turns foes turret was turning towards me and my tank was still unable to see enemy, then end of game and draw again, damn. I could win that if I could only shoot my last AP rounds at point bland range, even through dust. There should be option to fire AP rounds blindly through dust and smoke, towards point where enemy was seen last time. When you assign area target you could just add are you shooting HE or AP or MG, is it possible to add these options?

[Macphail]

i like to line my tanks up and fire blindly into wooded areas, just in case anyone is there. i havnt tried firing into dust clouds, but i guess the theory is the same. i rate your chances of hitting a moving vehicle in the cloud at about 0%, multiplied by the number of firing guns, say, 6....so 6x0=0. much better huh?

[flamingknives]

If you can see through dust/smoke/terrian, you can shoot through it with whatever you like. Dust in CMAK is very similar to smoke, except it isn't as dense and usually doesn't last as long

[Quenaelin]

In my case there was slight change to hit target if only my tank would been firing, enemy tank was only rotating towards me in open ground. I cannot see why my tank could not see enemy in so close range? Game graphics was showing little or no dust at all. If only I could fire 3-5 AP rounds to that spot, I could at least scare that tank. Maybe next time I have better luck.

[Quenaelin]

Main point in my post was that there should be option in this game to be able to shoot blindly indirect fire or direct fire into any location or direction you want and whatever ammunition you want.

[xerxes]

Allowing "blind" shooting would make the gaminess scale main spring snap in half.

[GreenAsJade]

If you want the dust graphics to present more of a visual barrier, hit capital "i" (I). Then they truly represent to you what your tank commanders can see.

I agree with the sentiment that the "high quality" dust graphics don't represent the amount of visual blockage they inflict, but that must be for playability reasons... I challenge you to leave the graphics on "fast & compatible" (which does block your sight the way the your units experience it) and be able to play...

GaJ.

[GreenAsJade]

(dupe)

[Quenaelin]

In every tank simulation (SteelBeasts and Panzer Elite) I can shoot through any amount of smoke and dust I want. And I guess also in reality smoke or dust aren't disabling your fire trigger, so why not include that option in strategy game? odds of hitting target could depend on amount of dust, targets which are covered only with one layer of dust/smoke would be much more easier to hit than targets coveredt with two or three layers of dust. Thin layer of dust should only be limiting visibility not disabling it.

[junk2drive]

in terms of games i have played, he or mg area fire past a smoke screen would be nice.

in real life, if a tank was being assaulted with smoke or site blocked by dust, would a tc waste limited ammo on ghosts?

otoh i think there should be more smoke available so maybe this is a compromise by bfc.

[Quenaelin]

Has anybody played tanks sims or being in gunnery of real tank, maybe he/she knows what I am talking about? Everybody seem to think that smoke/dust is always completely blocking the target, ofcourse it can be so or then you may see those ghosts or silhuettes through the dust. I think TC will command fire even he sees one glimpse of enemy becouse otherwise it could be too late.

[MikeyD]

Recently the new U.S. Army Stryker mobile gun system was having trouble because its 105mm gun's muzzle brake routinely kicked up enough dust to obscure the target as well as the flight of the round. And this wasnt just on dusty ground either. This is a pretty common complaint with high power guns with muzzle brakes.

This topic reminds me of two similar gripes of mine. The first is you're not allowed to lay down supressive mg fire beyond visual range at night, and you can't duplicate the U.S. tactic of first hitting a Panther with smoke to blind him then pouring on AP and HE. Both are 'firing blind' procedures that the game engine can't replicate.

[ September 09, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Quenaelin]

Finally, I am glad there is somebody who understands limitations in this game. These limitations are easily overcome just make difference with LOS and LOF = you can fire where you cannot see.

[junk2drive]

I found this reading through CMH brochures of Korea. Oh yeah, btw, tanks in Korea.

In the midst of the fighting at the head of the column, the guns in the two leading tanks jammed because of faulty rounds. At that time a shell came in toward Nordstrom's tank from the left front. Nordstrom instructed his platoon sergeant(MSgt. Jasper W. Lee) to fire in the general direction of the enemy gun until he and the tank behind him could clear their guns. This was done within a few minutes, and Nordstrom, having the best field of fire, started placing armor piercing rounds at five-yard intervals along the top of the ridge to his left, firing on the only logical positions in that area, since he could see no enemy vehicles. Following the sixth round there was another flash and explosion that set fire to nearby bushes and trees.

The next enemy fire came a few minutes later-another round from a selfpropelled gun. It appeared to have come from the right-front. It cut across Lieutenant Nordstrom's tank between the caliber .50 machine gun and the radio antenna about a foot above the turret, and then hit one of the tanks in Lieutenant Cook's platoon, seriously injuring four men. Because of the smoke it was impossible to pinpoint the enemy, so Nordstrom commenced firing armor-piercing shells into the smoke, aiming along the top of the ridge on the right side of the road. He hoped that the enemy gunners would believe that their position had been detected, and move so that he could discover the movement. Another green tracer passed his tank, this time a little farther to the right. Nordstrom increased his own rate of fire and ordered three other tank crews to fire into the same area. There was no further response from the enemy gun and, to conserve ammunition which was then running low, Nordstrom soon stopped firing. It was suddenly quiet again except along the ridgelines paralleling the road where Australian infantrymen and the other two tank platoons were pressing their attack. No action was apparent to the direct front.

At the rear of the column, Lieutenant Cook had gone to his damaged tank, climbed in and, sighting with a pencil along the bottom of the penetration, determined the approximate position of the enemy gun. He radioed this information to Nordstrom, who resumed firing with three tanks along the top of the ridge on the right side of the road. Again he failed to hit anything. For lack of a better target he then decided to put a few rounds through the smoke near the first enemy tank destroyed. He thought the two rounds might possibly have come from this tank even though the fire and explosions made this very improbable. The third round caused another explosion and gasoline fire. With this explosion most enemy action ended and only the sound of occasional small-arms fire remained.

[xerxes]

Sigh.

The inability to fire through smoke blindly was an INTENTIONAL design decision. It wasn't a mistake or an oversight. Allowing blind firing would create a gamey mess. It would make borg spotting far more potent then it is already.

[junk2drive]

ok, i can see the logic in that. how do you borg spot through blocked los? i'm not being a smarta**, just curious how that would work for the a.i.

we currently area fire at last seen icons, what would be the main difference? if i waste my ammo at ghosts, how is that gamey?

[vulture]

Imagine a situation (not uncommon) where your big gun / AFV / whatever is blocked from a target by a smokescreen, but another unit of yours 500m away has LOS to a target behind the somescreen. Courtesy of borg spotting, it would be possible to direct 'blind' fire at the right location, even though the gunner might not be aware that there is anything behind the smoke, never mind what, or where it is. An infantry advance covered by smoke would be incredibly vulnerable to large caliber HE still, and you'd only need one sharpshooter hidden somewhere near the enemy positions to act as a spotter for this.

It would effectively make smoke all but irrelevent.

It seems to be one of those realism vs game balance scenarios. It is unrealistic not to allow blind firing, but allowing would break things far more seriously.

[junk2drive]

that makes sense. thanks. i appreciate the effort bfc has gone through to keep the games "play balanced". you can only do so much with a computer program.

of course then is the discussion about why dont we get more smoke and why cant i hide behind a tank, etc.

i think all of this worked well in 2d top down turn based games. but i dont play those anymore.