(Old Bone from) CMx2 Fog of War Options.. Steve said something like.... (??????)

[Wartgamer]

It isn't a test as much as personal preferences.

I am beginning to think that some form of relative spotting playback is desirable. Especially if the game uses many 'spooks' or false info reports.

Perhaps having relative spotting playback for just HQ type units?

I don't know the inner workings of the game but I do not believe that a unique movie would have to ground out for each HQ. It would be the same movie with just his perspective acting as a 'filter'.

[Wartgamer]

I think the Macroplayback is best used to quickly ascertain if things like victory locations have changed hands, Tanks have been destroyed, etc. Details like infantry types, tank models, etc not being reported at this level.

Having HQ based relative spotting playback perspective could bring the player up to speed as far as more locale based events. This puts the player in the frame of mind of that HQ locale. Having the player then issue to orders to all units under that HQ would be a nice progression.

Again, having a Fastplay option would be nice to decrease viewing times. Especially for the Macroplayback.

[ February 27, 2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

I imagine the HQ based relative spotting playback movie to contain, of course, what the actual HQ sees and added to that what is realistically relayed from those units under his C&C.

For something like a tank platoon, with its small number of vehicles and unit based radio communications, the additional spotting information is shared fairly well. For a infantry formation, that has been under fire and even the HQ itself is suppressed, the playback movie could be very spotty as far as what is going on. For many WWII infantry formations, only the Company level HQ will generate a playback movie. For formations that have excellent small unit leadership and communications, there may be platoon HQ playback.

When selecting units to issue orders to (orders phase), the actual situation from that units perspective is potrayed (no playback movie though). But having a very poor HQ playback movie may inject some realistic caution and wild heroic orders may be curtailed.

[ February 27, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Every new feature in CMx2 should pass the "cumbersome" test IMHO

The idea that the movie play back would somehow provide a "more realistic" playing experience if the player was required to view the movie play back from the perspective of EACH individual friendly unit seems to me to be NOTHING more than a cumbersome mechanism to WASTE THE PLAYER'S time. However, if it was optional I suppose some players might interested.

Please don't forget the "cumbersome" test for clunky User Interface mechanisms or design elements.

thanks

-tom w

I do not now think that Playback movies should be from the individual unit viewpoint. Not from a cumbersome viewpoint but rather a reality viewpoint.

The game must simulate/abstract the C&C that a commander at this level of war might experience. having the detailed playback at the overall level is not correct. That is why I would want extremeley generic Macroplayback to be viewed first.

The HQ based playbacks are a very nice abstraction of what is going on in a certain locale. It divides up the battlefield into small venues and forces the player to realize that his battlefield intel may be very limited at the company/platoon level.

The individual unit 'view' should only come during the orders phase and right after the HQ playback. This simulates nicely having C&C progressing downward through your forces.

I bet the AI opponent may actually seem stronger in scenarios given that the human player has smaller info to act on.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

I imagine the HQ based relative spotting playback movie to contain, of course, what the actual HQ sees and added to that what is realistically relayed from those units under his C&C.

OK.

What if there are no HQ units in the force mix ?

[Wartgamer]

There should always be some default 'defacto-HQ' if you will. Its just a raw idea. I know that.

But what needs to be changed is the expectation that the Grand Movie-View represents anything as it is now. Its a major abstraction and should be acknowledged as such.

Any time you redesign something, its an opportunity to question its function, and add/modify it to achieve better design goals.

The problem with conversations like this is we do not really KNOW what design goals the cmx2 is being designed under. Many new design goals, like the 1:1 representation, have major impacts on other design goals (relative spotting), and other implications that haven't even been thought of.

The movieplayback 'rethink' addresses issues like God views. Info is only abused when the human gets it. By limiting/clouding the info 'feed', the game can restrict the human from being the know it all he becomes.

But at the same time, it can model a battlefield reality of certain sections of the front line falling out of Command and Control intel.

Lets take the example of a 2 company front with one company in reserve. One of the 2 front companies gets stonked by a 105mm barrage and multiple HMG attacks. The actual Bn commander is temporarily out of C&C of that section of the front as communications break down (wires cut), radio traffic gets hectic/garbled/lost, flares are signalling enemy but who knows how many, etc.

This is what gets modeled by the HQ based relative spotting. The true Fog of Command if you will. The limited intel on a front by front basis.

Lets say the game FORCED you to watch the HQ based relative movie playback with the least intel first. You have to watch from the company HQ perspective of the stricken company. The movie shows very little enemy troops but many spooks. You also have little indication of what effects the barrage/HMG have had on your troops (the actual company HQ is pinned). You are not being updated as far as casualties. At the end of that movie, you are menu asked "Commit reserves? Retreat? Hold?". You must decide if the reserve components must be committed BEFORE selecting units in your company for issuing orders to. Why? Because when you select each unit, you will gather individual pieces of the puzzle and these 'snapshots' will reveal to you much more than a company commander/Bn Commander could know.

What you decide at this 'command-crossroads' effects how the individual orders impact the troops under your command. War is Hell.

Just spitballing ideas here.

[ February 28, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

From another thread but it applys here....

Originally posted by Tero:

Perhaps the answer to the file size issue is to rethink the data which is required to make the play back file. The units will have memories built in now. Can that already stored game play memory be used to cut back the amount of data which needs to be transferred between the machines ?

This was brought up in the other thread.

Basically, the 'memory' (relative spotted info list for each unit), would be constantly changing during the game turn as it is updated. Its a file that contains what the unit sees during each timeslice of the turn.

It depends on how the new movieplayback will be seen by each side. If its a overview and not a relative view (basically something like we have now), then what you are saying may be true.

If it has relative function playback, seeing the turn from a unit's perspective, then much more data will probably have to be sent.

When playing PBEM, one machine crunches all info for both sides. It then sends that info over to the other player to be viewed first. So this may be a 'light' file if it contains non-relative playback. Its an overall 'grand' generic view. But when the file is returned, and the next player views it for his first time, he can view the turn in both a 'grand' view OR a relative view. He already has all the info needed to do that (it was generated on his sytem right?).

But once he plans his turn and sends his email, he will be sending a much larger file. He must include at least the relative info for just his opponent. But he does not need to resend the 'grand' view.

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

There should always be some default 'defacto-HQ' if you will. Its just a raw idea. I know that.

But what needs to be changed is the expectation that the Grand Movie-View represents anything as it is now. Its a major abstraction and should be acknowledged as such.

Any time you redesign something, its an opportunity to question its function, and add/modify it to achieve better design goals.

The problem with conversations like this is we do not really KNOW what design goals the cmx2 is being designed under. Many new design goals, like the 1:1 representation, have major impacts on other design goals (relative spotting), and other implications that haven't even been thought of.

The movieplayback 'rethink' addresses issues like God views. Info is only abused when the human gets it. By limiting/clouding the info 'feed', the game can restrict the human from being the know it all he becomes.

But at the same time, it can model a battlefield reality of certain sections of the front line falling out of Command and Control intel.

Lets take the example of a 2 company front with one company in reserve. One of the 2 front companies gets stonked by a 105mm barrage and multiple HMG attacks. The actual Bn commander is temporarily out of C&C of that section of the front as communications break down (wires cut), radio traffic gets hectic/garbled/lost, flares are signalling enemy but who knows how many, etc.

This is what gets modeled by the HQ based relative spotting. The true Fog of Command if you will. The limited intel on a front by front basis.

Lets say the game FORCED you to watch the HQ based relative movie playback with the least intel first. You have to watch from the company HQ perspective of the stricken company. The movie shows very little enemy troops but many spooks. You also have little indication of what effects the barrage/HMG have had on your troops (the actual company HQ is pinned). You are not being updated as far as casualties. At the end of that movie, you are menu asked "Commit reserves? Retreat? Hold?". You must decide if the reserve components must be committed BEFORE selecting units in your company for issuing orders to. Why? Because when you select each unit, you will gather individual pieces of the puzzle and these 'snapshots' will reveal to you much more than a company commander/Bn Commander could know.

What you decide at this 'command-crossroads' effects how the individual orders impact the troops under your command. War is Hell.

Just spitballing ideas here.

I heavily edited this. Please reread it if you will.

[Halberdiers]

Commander's estimate:

I agree on that CMX2 must stay in squad vision, but I have an idea on how to add the "commanders vision" to the "squad vision" and have finally the "player vision":

In the picture , one squad can not send information to the HQ platoon, and the HQ platoon have an imperfect estimation about the battle, but this information is better than any isolated squad.The player's vision of the battle will change on the orders phase and the movie phase of the current and next turns, but the effects of commander's estimation have time delays and a time limit.

Commander's estimate could be a order to the HQ to make a modification of the vision all subjects of the battlefield under their command in function of their own intelligence. Not only how the player see the enemy troops, their own troops too , the terrain,the roads , the friend troops,etc.

This order could have a delay and a time limit in their effects over the battlefield (and return to the squads vision alone) and the modification is not equal for all those HQ. It is different between HQ-Battalion ,HQ-Company or HQ platoon.

The first turn must to be for the player all the noise of the vision of own squads who see in excess and overestimate the enemy forces. The order of commander's estimation can be activated and change the vision of the battlefield. The better or worse intelligence of their HQs will be discovered by the player along the battle.

The multiple effects of the Commander's estimate order must to be understand as all the messages with the information (or dissinformation ) of all the HQs to the Battlefield commander (the player).The messages as pulses of information can make their effects on the vision of the Commander (the player).

[ February 28, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[Wartgamer]

You seem to be in the orders phase? Am I correct? You are not talking about the movie playback?

[Halberdiers]

yes , orders phase. Moreover, your next decision in the next orders phase will be influenced by the effects of your "commander's estimate" order of the last turn.

[Wartgamer]

So this is somewhat related to what I am proposing also (I think). But its a HQ based 'sitrep' (situation report) of sorts. By clicking on the HQ, you get a 'snapshot' intel report based on his own actual relative spotting, plus relayed intel from his troops under his command?

I do not understand some of the dynamics of it though.

My own philosophy at this point is that its a top down flow of gameplay.

The initial 'Grand' Movie is just an overall picture with few details. Its function is to rough in what happened the last turn without detailed information. I woudl even go so far as to say it should only be viewed in 2 D mode.

The relative spotting based 'Petite' movie playbacks based around the HQ units (not ALL HQ units by the way) supplies the player with situational awareness. Its his Command Fog of War filter. In some cases, the FOW will be stifling (Company HQ blasted by 150mm).

Thats where I think your idea may come into play. If platoon HQ can be selected during the orders phase, and a small sitrep can be displayed to the player, then the actual orders issued to all units under his command only becomes more realistic. In a case where the company HQ has just been KOd AND the platoon HQ is broken/pinned, the platoon HQ sitrep may be useless or even detrimental.

But the point is that its all flowing downhill towards the units. I really do not like the current system that allows players to jump around and inspect all minutia on the battlefield and THEN decide what orders to give/modify/etc.

[ February 28, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Halberdiers]

example:

1-Orders phase:

HQ unit:

click on the order:"Commander's estimation"

battlefield vision under influence of the HQ is CORRECTED(with delay and time limit).

Next units:

next orders,etc

2-Movie phase (with corrected vision)

note that you can stop the order ( to reject the message ) and return to the SQUADS VISION in the next turn.But you can not send another order until the last order is ended (it depend of the delay of messages: radio,runners,etc).

[ February 28, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[Wartgamer]

I think I see where we part ways.

The issuing of orders to units (be they squads or fireteams. HMG, etc) MUST use the individual unit's relative spotting information. Period. The whole point of it is so that targetting shared spotting enemy units ceases.

If the game determines that some sharing may actually be realistic, like within a tank platoon with two way radios, then that may actually use something like your idea. Is this the intent of the idea?

[Wartgamer]

Heres an example of how I would like your idea to play in (if you don't mind)..

I have a Tank Platoon. Its the orders phase so I click on the platoon tank HQ vehicle. I get a relative spotting/info picture from his perspective with extra info from his other 4 tanks added in. The level of detail/accuracy of those extras is not as precise as it would be if we were to click on those individual tanks themselves. But the platoon HQ vehicle has radio comminication with all 4 other vehicles so some data is being uplinked. His 'database' is therefore larger than any of his vehciles then. Studying the situation, the player then gives the Tank Platoon HQ vehicile orders. He then proceeds 'downward' to the individual tanks to issue the orders.

The next vehicle is selected. His 'sitrep' consists of those vehciles he has spotted but not everyone that the HQ vehicle is aware of. He may have some extra spooks showing enemy out of his LOS.

So the effect is not to just limit to what can be seen by the unit OR the HQ. Its sort of a sharing situation.

If the HQ vehicile were KOd or lost radio communications, the individual tanks would not get any downflow of information and the HQ vehcile would also get no upflow.

[ February 28, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Halberdiers]

yes , the HQ is the filter , the intelligence. Not only their vision is modified by the units. The HQ can change the vision of the battlefield of the units under his command.

But it is pulses of information. Not the continuous flow of information as now.

[ February 28, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[Wartgamer]

Here's another example:

We have a 3 tank russian early war platoon. The commander has a T34 with a radio but the other two tanks have recieve only radios.

We click on the HQ tank (always first). He sees what he sees (infantry moving in the distance) but there is no 'extras' because the subordinate tanks have no way of communicating what they see (they are out of LOS lets say). We give the HQ tank orders. We select one of the subordinate tanks and Ho!, we see an enemy tank (he gets relayed a spook about some infantry out of his LOS from the HQ tank). We give the best orders we can. But, now the fun part, we jump to the last subordinate tank. We see what he sees (nothing much) but what is to stop us from acting on the information we just aquired about the tank out of LOS?

That is why I want the game to present the player with units to issue orders that have the least intel first. The player does not get to choose units to order for a good reason.

[ February 28, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Halberdiers:

yes , the HQ is the filter , the intelligence. Not only their vision is modified by the units. The HQ can change the vision of the battlefield of the units under his command.

But it is pulses of information. Not the continuous flow of information as now.

I think there is a seed of an interesting idea here...

The "idea" or concept of pulses of information and NOT a continous flow deserves some exploration for sure.

I am not so sure I understand the mechanism as suggested here. From what I am reading I think the interface and the way it would work in the game sort of feels "clunky", and too mechanistic (maybe overly restrictive. although I understand that is the whole idea for realistic fog of war purposes).

I am guessing this is not the avenue the boys at BFC are exploring but as a rough seed of an idea the concept has merit for sure with the idea of pulse of info and NOT a continous flow.

Perhaps if you work through some of the details more throughly here more folks might post their comments.

I would like to suggests more folks are not posting to comment here because the suggestion and EXACTLY how it would work in the game is very difficult to understand or at least to understand correctly, in my opinion.

Perhaps if this idea can be detailed and explained much more thoroughly it someone could start a new thread with an appropriate title for this discussion?

-tom w

[ February 28, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Wartgamer]

I would like to suggests more folks are not posting to comment here because the suggestion and EXACTLY who it would work in the game is very difficult to understand or at least to understand correctly, in my opinion.

thanks

-tom w

?

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

I would like to suggests more folks are not posting to comment here because the suggestion and EXACTLY how (typo) it would work in the game is very difficult to understand or at least to understand correctly, in my opinion.

thanks

-tom w

?

[Wartgamer]

Do you not follow me, Halberdiers or both or someone else?

[Wartgamer]

Let me be absolutely clear about my vision of what a cmx2 product could be.

If the game were to follow the realistic modeling I am proposing here, the market for the world wide 'recreational wargaming market' would be dwarfed by the orders from worldwide military orginizations. It could be part of every officer's training in most countries.

And I would not give a damn about PBEM if the game were as good as I envision it (but it would be nice). A reasonably good AI could offer a challenging game once the relative spotting introduced and Borg behaviour is curtailed. The godlike view of the battlefield is just as big a problem and that is what I am addressing with my suggestions.

The present movie playback concept needs a major redesign in light of improvements like relative spotting. The order in which units are given orders also has to be addressed.

The curtailment of information will introduce true Fog Of War and the abuse of information will stop.

[ February 28, 2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

I believe the present BFC proposal is to keep a 'Macro' playback movie much as it is now. BFC said they would dumb it down to reflect the change to Relative Spotting.

They have also made remarks about a new Command and Control system but not many details.

There are many ways to skin a cat so it will be interesting what they have in mind there.

[Battlefront.com]

Guys, I wouldn't worry too much about it. We're planning on having various options for the game. If we find something is done for realism but becomes "too cumbersome" we can always put in an option to dumb it down. Dumbing down is really easy to do compared to making something smarter after the initial design is complete. Everything in CMx2 is being designed for full bore realism to the extent possible, with all less realistic options to be finalized at some later time. Of course we're keeping these options in mind now, it's just they aren't very important at this stage.

As for Realtive Spotting in Movie playback... remember that part of the benefit of Relative Spotting is to make the God and Borg problems less of a factor. In the most realistic settings that means NOT giving the player a complete and unfettered view of the entire battlefield all at once. Ever. By allowing the player to sit back and watch all the action happening he gets situational awareness that no commander would ever have and therefore... Borg and God issues. There is no arguing against this from a realism perspective.

However, arguing against this from a playability/fun standpoint... sure! I think the majority of gamers would want to have the full movie with all action playing back at once shown. So obviously we are going to support it in some form. And if you ninnies read my post better, you'd see that I already said this

As for the suggestion of showing both possible positions for a particular enemy unit... I think that won't work out in reality very well. It will likely create such a mess of disinformation that the player will be totally confused and frustrated by it all. More so than he should, and certainly more so than that type of player would want. I mean, if the player is saying "I'll take less realism for more fun" (fun is always a relative concept) then the last thing we should do is say "OK, here is how you dumb down the realism so you can have more fun. Oh, BTW... you might notice that it is really, super annoying. Enjoy!" Yes... I can just see the feedback from that feature now... and it ain't pretty

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

Thanks Steve

But I am still really curious what Halberdiers was proposing with his pulsed imformation style and Commander's estimate:

I agree on that CMX2 must stay in squad vision, but I have an idea on how to add the "commanders vision" to the "squad vision" and have finally the "player vision":

it looked like a seed of some form of new User interface suggestion but I still do not fully understand everything he is talking about...

-tom w