Retreating/Escaping from Artillery

[jacobs_ladder2]

I know there are a thousand variables here, but what can be done to get out from under a barrage? I am not talking about dug-in or armoured units, but rather exposed infantry.

Generally speaking, once caught by artillery, are you stuck for the duration?

Cheers

Paul

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2:

I know there are a thousand variables here, but what can be done to get out from under a barrage? I am not talking about dug-in or armoured units, but rather exposed infantry.

Generally speaking, once caught by artillery, are you stuck for the duration?

That's the way it usually played out. But more seasoned/better led troops would get up and advance toward the enemy positions, banking on the likelihood that they wouldn't correct onto their own positions. Sometimes that worked...

Michael

[Stalin's Organ]

I thought veterans tended to hit the dirt much earlier than new/green troops - the vet's knew what was coming!

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

That's the way it usually played out. But more seasoned/better led troops would get up and advance toward the enemy positions, banking on the likelihood that they wouldn't correct onto their own positions. Sometimes that worked...

Michael

One thing I have a hard time understanding is the intensity of artillery. I mean, it seems to me like it should be nearly impossible to get everyone onto the same page and moving in the same direction while being deafened, blinded by smoke and dust, rocked by concussion, etc.

Cheers

Paul

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

I thought veterans tended to hit the dirt much earlier than new/green troops - the vet's knew what was coming!

True, absolutely true. But they were also quicker to sort the situation out and do something proactive to improve their lot. The green troops were more likely to just cower and pray for it to go away.

Michael

[von Churov]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

I thought veterans tended to hit the dirt much earlier than new/green troops - the vet's knew what was coming!

If you hit the dirt after being zeroed in by artillery...you're a dead meat.

First thing to do after you have been hit by arillery in the open field is to GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE! :mad:

And yes, the vets know what's comming so they tend to flee much sooner.

In open, the sooner you get out of there the lower causalties you'll suffer.

Worst thing to do is to hit the dirt and pray for barrage to end.That's just what the greens do. And that's just why they tend to suffer high initial causalties.Before they learn a few things.

This is one of those things that privates have to learn in those famous "first couple of days" (or hours) in the battlefield to provide themselves with at least a slim chance of survival.

UNDER BARRAGE (in the open field) DONT COVER YOUR HEAD!

RUN!

I don't know about the other armies (though I presume it's just the same) but in the Army of Serbia & Montenegro such situations are a part of basic infantry training.

There is a special command in such situation, and it goes something like:"Enemy barrage! 200m (or 100m, or any distance) full run!"

After this command is being issued the privates are expected to run the fastest they can, (generally in the direction of the current facing but if circumstances are such they can run in ANY direction;the point is not in the direction, but in the quick gettaway) regardles of any formation, order or equipment, for 200m and then AND ONLY THEN to take cover.

And this drill is being used and rehearsed quite frequently, which shows it's importance in real combat situations.

I doubt that this is much different in other armies.

[vincere]

And this drill is being used and rehearsed quite frequently, which shows it's importance in real combat situations.

I doubt that this is much different in other armies.

British Army has a commonly used term of "Bug Out!!". It was even incorporated into situations where we were lightly dug in (shell scrapes). Mayby partly because we were usually in woods, and partly due to the anticipated saturation that was expected from Soviet forces.

Also it was always drilled home that after taking a position, fight through it before an anticipated final defensive shelling.

[jacobs_ladder2]

There's something I don't understand here. Does it all depend on terrain then? Is the best option always to run as fast as possible out of the targetted area? What if you have decent cover right where you are?

So, in WWII, how do men generally react? And, when do they run?

Cheers

Paul

[Pirx]

The most successful tactic in real life is not always the most successful tactic in the game. My hunch is that "bugging out", i.e. issuing a run command to troops under artillery fire, may increase the casualties. Has anyone done any experiments?

[Philippe]

What I usually do is keep an eye out for incoming spotting rounds and then either withdraw or run about a hundred and fifty meters at a ninety degree angle to whatever I think the long axis of the barrage will be. Not sure if this is realistic, but I've always felt that once the shells start falling in earnest there's too much of a tendency for the troops to go to ground and get chewed up. I've escaped a lot of barrages that way.

[ozi_digger]

Back in the day (15 years ago) I had similar training to what von Churov described. It didn't really depend on the terrain, just if you were dug-in or not. If caught on the move and artillery/mortars start coming down the SOP was to quickly withdraw (i.e. run) a few hundred metres.

I use the same method in CMAK. If caught in the open by artillery I'll withdraw, usually using the run command, back to the nearest bit of cover. The run command isn't that bad, because you get little gaps in the barrage (y'know - between 'firing' and 'landing and exploding'). I had a recent game against AI and an FO targeted a platoon on the first turn. Some sections panicked, others did not, but I basically ran who I could back out of the danger zone.

Conversely, in a recent CMBO pbem, my troops advancing thru scattered woods and pines were caught in a 105mm barrage. Knowing I'd run out of turns if I withdrew a little, and would get cut up if I stayed in place, I just kept advancing my men. In that case I wasn't under small arms fire either and the best way was forward.

I guess, like a real commander, you have to do a quick appreciation of the tactical situation and decide on the best course of action.

[jacobs_ladder2]

OK, well let me try a slightly different twist. Take a company of men and subject them to a barrage from a single battery of 105mm guns (real life here). How hard would it be to get the entire company moving in the right direction? Now, let's say you can't get the order to everyone. What do you do? Do you get as many men as possible to move together out from under the barrage and leave the rest to their own devices? Are the men even waiting for your order or have they already acted on their own?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If you are assaulting and come under arty fire, I don't see everyone just running off in whatever directions they see fit. The end result could be chaos and a lot of displaced squads (if not worse). I would think the last thing you would want would be everyone making judgement calls and running 100 metres or more in whatever direction appears to be the best.

Cheers

Paul

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2:

OK, well let me try a slightly different twist. Take a company of men and subject them to a barrage from a single battery of 105mm guns (real life here). How hard would it be to get the entire company moving in the right direction? Now, let's say you can't get the order to everyone. What do you do? Do you get as many men as possible to move together out from under the barrage and leave the rest to their own devices? Are the men even waiting for your order or have they already acted on their own?

The idea of an entire company being in the beaten zone of a battery shoot strikes me as a bit odd. I mean, that's pretty bunched up by the WW II era. I can imagine a platoon maybe getting caught, but if a company isn't spread out more than that, either someone has screwed up badly or it is a special circumstance.

However that may be, to try to answer your question, you have a company advancing in some kind of order and one of the platoons gets hit. The other two platoons would probably carry on, at least until they found some reasonable cover, and the one hit would likely scatter. They would then have to reorganize, take care of wounded, etc. That would pretty much make them the reserve platoon. The other two platoons would most likely carry on the attack.

Michael

[ozi_digger]

@j_l2: I can only speak from my own experience and that it was the SOP to withdraw - back where you came from - a few hundred metres until you're out of the danger zone. The way the order is conveyed depends on the training I guess. Again the SOP would be for the the commander to shout it out (i.e. 'bug out!' or 'retreat!' or 'withdraw!' or whatever) and for everyone who hears it to repeat the order at the top of their voice. Not foolproof, but simple, and hope that everybody in your section/platoon gets the message.

[Michael Emrys]

To anticipate your next question, if there is enough artillery to prang the whole company, then yes, they will become disorganized and possibly demoralized as well. That's why attackers wanted large superiority of strength, so that their overall attack could absorb dislocations like that and still carry forward. It is also by even small battles (CM sized) could take all day. A lot of time was spent rounding everybody up, making sure they have enough ammo and that they know what they are supposed to do next. That wouldn't necessarily take hours each time it happens—leaders the next echelon or two down are supposed to be handling some of this too, assuming they are still alive and functioning—but if something like this happens several times during the battle, and it might, it all starts to add up.

War is hell...or at least chaos.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by ozi_digger:

@j_l2: I can only speak from my own experience and that it was the SOP to withdraw - back where you came from - a few hundred metres until you're out of the danger zone. The way the order is conveyed depends on the training I guess. Again the SOP would be for the the commander to shout it out (i.e. 'bug out!' or 'retreat!' or 'withdraw!' or whatever) and for everyone who hears it to repeat the order at the top of their voice. Not foolproof, but simple, and hope that everybody in your section/platoon gets the message.

And even if you don't get the message, if you see the rest of your platoon high-tailing it to the rear, you are likely to "get the message".

:eek:

Michael

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

To anticipate your next question, if there is enough artillery to prang the whole company, then yes, they will become disorganized and possibly demoralized as well. That's why attackers wanted large superiority of strength, so that their overall attack could absorb dislocations like that and still carry forward. It is also by even small battles (CM sized) could take all day. A lot of time was spent rounding everybody up, making sure they have enough ammo and that they know what they are supposed to do next. That wouldn't necessarily take hours each time it happens—leaders the next echelon or two down are supposed to be handling some of this too, assuming they are still alive and functioning—but if something like this happens several times during the battle, and it might, it all starts to add up.

War is hell...or at least chaos.

Michael

That's basically my impression as well. Interesting.

Cheers

Paul

[von Churov]

The idea of an entire company being in the beaten zone of a battery shoot strikes me as a bit odd. I mean, that's pretty bunched up by the WW II era. I can imagine a platoon maybe getting caught, but if a company isn't spread out more than that, either someone has screwed up badly or it is a special circumstance.

This kind of commands like "Bug out!" (i like this one, it's short and clear) and "Barrage, 200m!Run!" (this one is for the purpose of drill, the real combat command is shorter i believe), are issued on the platoon or the squad level, so their commanders are in charge of makin subordinate units follow it.

If you are assaulting and come under arty fire, I don't see everyone just running off in whatever directions they see fit. The end result could be chaos and a lot of displaced squads (if not worse).

Yes, they do get scattered and a bit shaken and tired and everything...but it is way much better than to be perfectly still, entirely rested, and totally calm...and dead.

That's why the direction doesn't really matter. The primary goal is to get your man out of there.

Theoretically, the direction will be the one of the current facing, which is usually forward. It makes sence to me: it is much quicker to just start to run the same direction that you are already facing, then to turn and to maybe start stumbling over each other and then run head on with second echalon and distrupt them too.

If you are assaulting, that means that you are near the enemy position and you are already on the move, so in case of the barrage just move on but MUCH FASTER, and get engaged in close combat with the enemy. It's way much better that to get engaged in the close encounter with it's artillery shells.

Inside enemies position you should be "safe" from his artilery, all you have to do is to handle the enemy itself...and since you are the attacker you are supposed to have numerical superiority which is by the way decisive in close combat.

Besides, running back under barrage in front of the enemy position is inviting a grim reaper for the harvest in your troop.

Of course this is theory...In practice the circumstances determine the actual direction of high tailing.

I would think the last thing you would want would be everyone making judgement calls and running 100 metres or more in whatever direction appears to be the best

You don't have time to make a judgament calls, as soon as you see the barrage comming and you hear loud and clear "Bug out!" it seems to you like a hand of salvation. So you follow it. That's why there's an order. Sometimes, is the best way just to scatter in every possible direction, especially under light mortar fire, so the enemy cannot decide which side to readjust his fire to.

Also,often in real life it is quite obvious which is the best direction to run to.

Does it all depend on terrain then? Is the best option always to run as fast as possible out of the targetted area? What if you have decent cover right where you are?

But the question arises, what is the decent cover. Being in the rough doesnt mean that you are in any more safer position than being in the ploughed field.

Imagine what the shell can do with rocks splintering around and therefore creating even more deadly projectiles, than there is a richocheting effect on the top of all.

I read the credits of vets saying that sometimes they were safer in the deeply ploughed field, for after the impact shell were going deep into the soil and all of the shrapnells were flying straght up. And soil itself created no additional schrapnells.

In the woods the aerial bursts can do more damage than anything else, even if you are entranched.

So, that's why theory says that you don't run only if you are entranched.

Of course, this does not mean that you should stand your ground even if you're dug in. (Now the WWI like shelling on the enemy trenches comes to my mind.)

Anyway, that's why the commanding officers are for. To judge which is the best solution in the given moment and to act accordingly.

So, now it's obvious why Stalin had called the arty "the queen of the battlefield"

Cheers!

[MikeyD]

Huh! And to think I had been complaining elsewhere about the ability of troops to dash out of the way of a CM artillery strike. My point had been that it seemed gamey. Now I read that that's how its supposed to be done - Rambo running between mortar blasts was SOP!

My only problem with that is my troops tendency to go to ground halfway through their run and find themselves worse off than before. A last resort command I've been using is 'Withdraw". They obey that command immediatelty, are less likely to be driven to ground, but on the minus side they're more likely to sustain casualties during the move and tend to panic.

[vincere]

The chaos of men scattering in all directions is diminished by a British SOP of designating redevous points (RVs)for most situations like advances and patrols.

[JasonC]

The mistake is thinking artillery barrages come in a standard size. They do not. Those being shelled have no way of knowing how large the barrage footprint will be, in what way it will be oriented, where they are compared to its center, or how long it will last. They therefore have no way of knowing which locations they might run toward, might be out of the barrage area. Nor is the intensity of shelling a constant. Some barrages are hurricane affairs of many guns firing at once, rapidly. Others are a few shells irregularly spaced, stretched over hours.

If they know there is good cover somewhere - cellars, foxholes or trenches they occupied previously - then they might head to them, particularly if they are close. If they can tell some specific and limited area is particularly exposed - they drew fire when they entered a certain field, likely visible from the enemy position e.g. - then it may be obvious that fire can be avoided or its duration lessened, by some definite move.

But quite often they simply know nothing of the kind. And standing up - even crouching low while running - in an artillery barrage increases your vulnerability to individual shells by at least a factor of ten, compared to lying prone. If the "barrage" is going to consist of 4 flights of shells and be over in less than five minutes, does it really make so much sense to increase vulnerability to the 2nd and 3rd by a factor of 10, in order maybe, if you are both fast and lucky, to avoid the 4th?

The time when it is essential to get out of a beaten zone, is when the enemy is going to be able to drop shells there indefinitely. Particularly if they aren't coming all that fast right now. Or if the fire is clearly observed and you lack any cover at all - in which case, you can expect the shelling to end only when you do. The most common response, though, is to seek the best cover nearby and go to ground there, and remain prone. Yes avoiding open ground and observation. No, not predicting that anyplace 200m away will be safe as houses.

Here are some examples of US forces reacting to artillery fire in the battle of the bulge. Notice the variation in intensity and duration of the fire. Nothing like "always 4 guns, always 2-3 minutes, always 30-60 shells, always tight sheaf, always platoon sized target, 200m away safe as houses" - involved.

An entire regiment in the front line is shelled for an hour and a half by guns ranging from 75mm to 210mm in caliber, plus rockets. Two corps worth, plus 2 brigades of rocket launchers. They get in their holes and ride it out - they do not run - and because many of their holes had log roofs and they were not precisely located, their casualties were fairly light.

An infantry battalion plus a cavalry battalion are shelled heavily for 20 minutes by over 10 battalions of artillery, which walks shells over their positions, as deep as their supporting artillery miles behind the lines, and back again. The barrage suppresses their supporting arty, cuts the phone lines, shatters houses and starts numerous local fires. The troops stay in their holes throughout and their losses are light.

A US battalion with two platoons added from another unit is under repeated attack and heavy shellfire between the attacks. The main body bugs out, while the two attached platoons fail to get the word and remain in their holes. The shelling continues for hours. The force that pulled out is cut in half and scattered. The two platoons make it back to friendly lines 24 hours later, leaving after running out of ammo.

120 engineers fighting as infantry, defending in a village with hasty positions only, are shelled intensely for 6 minutes, immediately followed by an infantry attack. There is no record of them bugging out. The German attack is said to be stopped by US arty and a few men manning automatic weapons. German artillery shells the village in slow, sustained fashion thereafter, and the men remain, presumably using cellars where possible.

A US infantry battalion is defending in foxhole cover inside a treeline. They are subjected to a heavy prep barrage, followed by an early morning infantry attack. The Americans are in their holes, and some still so deep in them or so shaken, that the Germans win the "race to the parapet" and capture or kill the bulk of one of the forward companies. The remnants in that part of the line are protected in front by a sustained US 81mm mortar barrage, which fires 1200 rounds over a period of hours, inducing the Germans to bypass and try elsewhere.

The neighboring front line company in the same incident catches the Germans still in the open, but the Germans are reinforced by a second wave which overwhelms those US defenders, too. The US reserve line holds. German arty shells them in sustained fashion but they remain.

A US infantry battalion is holding a foxhole line along a treelined road, and a few houses. German artillery, mortars, and rockets shell them from 3 hours before dawn, to dawn. This fire causes many casualties, destroys weapons with direct hits, and creates large gaps in the thin line. The Germans attack at dawn but their infantry is stripped by the Americans' own "box" barrage, which lasted 8 hours, employed 10 battalions at one point or another, and fired 10,000 shells. The next day the defending artillery fired 300 missions in defense of the same position.

German artillery fires a diffuse bombardment at various locations throughout a US regiment's sector, for half of a night. The US defenders stay in their foxholes and suffer little. That, however, was the point, because German infantry succeeded in infiltrating their positions, through woods, in many spots, where the arty wasn't firing that instant. Night plus a good reason to stay deep, prevented the US infantry from stopping this infiltration. Notice, they did not think sidestepping by 200m would help against a slow barrage drizzling in shells over hours all over an entire regiment's sector.

A small force of US cavalry, vehicles and some dismounts, holds a village. Between German infantry probes they are shelled by German arty. They remain, losses mounting but not dislodged. When later they do retreat, the village they left is shelled again (while empty) before being occupied by the Germans.

German infantry begins inflitration in in predawn darkness, 30 minutes before a long and heavy prep barrage, lasting hours and ranging over whole regiments. It cut communications and kept the US forces defensive and stationary.

German artillery fires at a US battalion position for 20 minutes. Then one company rushes, and gets in among 2 US companies. A US reserve line holds.

A heavy German barrage including rockets begining an hour before dawn hits the junction between 2 US units. A single company (in foxholes) is under the heaviest part of the fire, and its losses mount rapidly. The barrage last hours into daylight and the US company is halved in place.

German corps level artillery puts a dawn barrage on a surrounded US force. The Americans stay in their holes until it passes, then fight an infantry probe, moving themselves (in an attempt to cut a route out) only after both have been weathered.

A German prep fire throughout a regimental area, lasting 30 minutes, cuts up communications and keeps defenders in their holes. It transitions to occasional salvos. US defenders emerge to engage infiltrating German infantry, but stay in villages and concede the woods.

German artillery fires occasional salvos into a village. They cease several hours before dawn, German infantry scouts and patrols are right behind them. They probe cautiously until dawn and the arrival of an armored main body. (Notice, this sequence would take places cheaply if troops regularly "bug out" whenever shelled).

German arty shells a village from 30 minutes before dawn to dawn, when infantry attacks. The defenders are ready and stop them. (Later the Germans get in under cover of fog).

German artillery and rockets barrage a US battalion before dawn. At dawn they switch to counter-battery fire, while tanks and infantry attack. The Americans are reduced already and rapidly defeated.

German artillery shells a town for two hours, then armor attacks. Infantry follows the armor rather than leading. US AT defense is weak, the rest briefly engage the following infantry but German weight of armor takes the place. (This was probably probing for a cheap "take" if possible. Hoping to catch defenders in cellars, if they did not bug out).

A German large prep fire ranges deep at numerous targets, firing by map. It has little direct effect on the defenders, but combined with morning fog, helps German infantry infiltrate successfully in various places.

German shelling of a village starts an exodus of civilians. Americans stop them to avoid clogging the roads; they hide in cellars instead, for several days. Eventually they are evacuated at night. (This does not suggest is was the veteran thing to "bug out" in such circumstances. Note the effect of a longer time scale).

A German prep fire at a town uses an estimated 1000 shells. Few US troops are present and little damage is done, except to buildings, civilians, and the inevitable cut commo wire. (Note that the assumption that arty is aimed specifically at you is in general unfounded. Often the shooter is flat guessing).

US cavalry (light armor plus dismounts) and AA halftracks try a local counterattack. Germans respond with substantial mortar fire from woods interiors. The light vehicles are in danger, dismounts take casualties, the Germans are perfectly safe - so the Americans withdraw.

Accurate German prep with good intel hits company command posts (exclusively) through a regiment wide sector. Communications completely collapse (no effective arty support for 8 hours) and the front lines fight in uncoordinated fashion, many being overrun, others surrounded as a result, etc. (The point - saving yourself isn't enough, your job also needs to be performed or other units get killed).

A US local counterattack by tanks is stalled in a village by German infantry with fausts and schrecks. After the Americans pull back, the Germans shell all parts of the village they hold with rockets, artillery, and mortars. "Heavy and accurate shellfire followed each move". This renders the US defensive, for good. Germans then take their time and move to cut a road behind the Americans. (Suggests pinning effect. Also notice the role of arty is frequently heaviest *between* the tactical fights, "reaching out" to enemy out of direct fire contact. Also, notice movements *draw* successfully re-aimed fire, rather than avoiding it).

A US armor and infantry force in a village attacks, Germans have infantry and artillery. German arty fires smoke, limiting LOS to panzerfaust range. Tanks limited to what their own infantry can reach, US switches to infantry leading. Then HE for 3 hours pins US infantry. A four hour attack gains 75 yards, net.

US armor and infantry force attacks through underbrush. MG fire from higher ground and artillery fire stall them out. 40 casualties (out of a company) are enough to stop them, many times that number being used to evac wounded. (Notice, they do indeed avoid *advancing* into a beaten zone, but don't get out of one rapidly, either. MGs, shell fragments, and wounded to carry see to that).

An attack led by infantry across open fields, objectives some woods on the other side, was "checked" by heavy German shellfire. Casualties were very heavy. They tried in a different area, up a wooded draw. (Notice, it is not the effect of trees on shellbursts but on observation that counts. Open frequently means observed means accurate shellfire).

Americans holding in a village with armor support, are shelled heavily by mortars and artillery, rubbling most of the village. They remain and ride it out, tanks buttoned and infantry in cellars.

[stoat]

Do you have any more examples? I'd like to see them all explained in detail.

[JasonC]

Sure I've got tons. But that post took 3 hours as it is...

[stoat]

What was your source(s)? I don't mean to imply anything, but it sounds like an interesting read.

[Michael Emrys]

Jason, that is all very interesting but beside the point of what the discussion was about up until now. I'm not trying to deter you from opening up another line of discussion, but I hope you realize the difference.

We were not talking about troops defending in foxholes and debating whether or not those positions should be abanodoned if they come under shellfire. I believe your point is that under those circumstances they most likely should not. If so, I would agree with you.

But we had been talking about the behavior of troops caught in the open while advancing. Specifically one company, some of whose troops are brought under fire by a single battery of artillery, such as one might be likely to encounter in a game of CM. The question then was what would be the best option for the troops caught within the beaten zone of that artillery. My thought was that the first thing they should do is hit the dirt. As you say, simply getting prone reduces your vulnerability by a majority percentage. That done, they would try to form some idea of what their next step should be. They can lie there and hope the shelling stops before they start to take heavy casualties, or they can try to move out of the beaten zone, preferably into better cover or at least where they are not under observation.

Reading accounts of the hedgerow fighting in Normandy, I was struck by discovering something I hadn't expected to find. When the GIs would climb through a hedgerow into a field, they would come under fire from MGs hidden in the opposite hedgerow and hit the ground. Once the MGs had fixed them, the mortar rounds would begin dropping on them. The longer they stayed down, the more casualties they took. Even though standing up made them more vulnerable to both mortars and MGs, it was found to be better to either withdraw back to cover or advance and capture the enemy position. The worst option of all was simply to lie there and die.

Michael