The scale of CMAK battles compared to CMBB

[Monwar]

I have been reading about CMAK battles and no doubt they are interesting, but compared to the Eastern Front they seems like micro scale battles. Bagration alone boasted ~15 times the number of troops. The whole DAK probably won't even make an army in Russia. I know they can be ideal for CMAK battles but just thought I would let you know my thoughts. The Eastern Front is so huge in scale, no other theatre can be but a complete sideshow to it.

[Firefly]

Yes, but as the average CM battle is battalion sized, or regiment/brigade sized at a push, it would make little difference to the game. It would make a difference in an operational game.

Also the amount of troops involved in a battle doesn't really impact on the importance of the battle, the size of the armies at the Battle of Hastings was tiny even compared to 19th century battles, but the history of Britain and probably large parts of the rest of the world could have been quite different if the Normans had lost.

[ October 05, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[Monwar]

'Yes, but as the average CM battle is battalion sized, or regiment/brigade sized at a push, it would make little difference to the game. It would make a difference in an operational game.'

You hit the point Firefly. I understand that. I was just trying to say that the Eastern Front has a much greater immersion factor for me as it was by far the deciding front of WW2.

Thanks.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Monwar:

You hit the point Firefly. I understand that. I was just trying to say that the Eastern Front has a much greater immersion factor for me as it was by far the deciding front of WW2.

Oh I wouldn't deny that, but if the Aliies had lost control of the Med, it wouldn't have made life for the Russians any easier . The war in Italy also tied up German troops that could have been sent east otherwise, whether they would have made any difference is open to debate.

[lcm1947]

What you say is correct but I am really looking forward to playing with those early tanks and equipment. I think with the early lower powered weapons ( tanks and guns ) the games should seem more balanced or maybe I should say the infantry I believe will play a bigger part since you won't have such powerful weapons. For some reason this appeals to me as I always find myself picking earlier period battles. To each their own as they say. Although it's going to be extremely challenging to battle those PzIII & IV's with Grants and the various British armor. I may just advance to the period where they finally recieved Shermans.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Monwar:

'Yes, but as the average CM battle is battalion sized, or regiment/brigade sized at a push, it would make little difference to the game. It would make a difference in an operational game.'

Thanks.

I'm not sure that the "average" CM game is battalion sized, actually - a lot of people play company sized games. I've never played a regiment size game myself.

I am a little more interested in CMBB myself, although after playing it almost everyday since it came out, I am looking forward to a little variety. FWIW, some of the CMAK battles may be more realistic than CMBB battles, as there were several battles around the time of torch where the US committed *only* a battalion or even a company to take an important objective. These battles (several are mentioned in Atkinson) should be interesting to replay.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

...I am really looking forward to playing with those early tanks and equipment.

I'm looking forward to luring those British tanks onto my Pakfront, then smashing into their flanks with my tanks.

Michael

[Makes The Jelly Judder]

The armies might have been small but they were nearly always engaged in significant numbers, whilst the distance advanced by the victories armies was in the range of hundreds of miles. The back an forth distances traveled by each nation would have easily cover the whole distance of Russia.

I think the problem with CMAK will be that the maps will be too small whilst the number or troops involved will be ok, which is possibly the opposite of CMBB's problems.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I've never played a regiment size game myself.

Neither have I. Seems like a particularly cruel form of masochism to me. In fact, I can't get completely comfortable playing with a reinforced battalion. A couple companies of infantry and a couple platoons of tanks is about as much as I want to hassle with.

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I would not quite agree with the opinion that somehow CMBB battles are less realistic if they involve smaller units - if that is what you mean in the post. If I got the wrong end of the stick, apologies.

There have been numerous battles in the east involving smaller units. The key is to find out about them, because they just get drowned in the vastness of the frontline, where a Corps was almost a 'use once then discard' type formation.

[flamingknives]

To each their own as they say. Although it's going to be extremely challenging to battle those PzIII & IV's with Grants and the various British armor. I may just advance to the period where they finally recieved Shermans.

I think that you do a great disservice to British AT weapons.

In terms of armour penetration, approximately;

2pdr=50mmL42

6pdr=75mmL36, or 75mmL46 (6pdr with APDS)

17pdr=88mmL51

25pdr=? but enought to mash most, if not all, PzIII variants.

The German advantage is that of range and decent HE.

Of course, the tanks are either tin cans but fast, or well armoured but outpaced by turtles.

[Monwar]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I would not quite agree with the opinion that somehow CMBB battles are less realistic if they involve smaller units - if that is what you mean in the post. If I got the wrong end of the stick, apologies.

There have been numerous battles in the east involving smaller units. The key is to find out about them, because they just get drowned in the vastness of the frontline, where a Corps was almost a 'use once then discard' type formation. </font>

In some of your scenarios I have found out with delight those small unit battles. Right now I'm PBEMing some of them, including the Sapristi. Fun and thx!

Can you list some others here?

[Ghost Rider]

Well, the combat in Italy was quite fierce. That's what I'm looking forward to the most. It'll be tough to do right, do!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Monwar:

In some of your scenarios I have found out with delight those small unit battles. Right now I'm PBEMing some of them, including the Sapristi. Fun and thx!

Can you list some others here?

If you go to the Scenario Depot (first link in my sig), I think you can look by author. That would give you most of mine, except the ones that are on the CMBB SE CD.

I also recommend the stuff by Hans, and the Gebirgsjaeger operation series (CMBB).