Concrete Pillboxes too strong?

[Will Bucko]

I played the Operation "Santa Maria Infante" as the Americans vs. a friend and encountered a concrete MG pillbox on S Ridge that was hardened like NORAD at Cheyenne Mountain. I could not take the pillbox out with the following:

24 shots from bazookas at the rear door, point blank range. The MG in the pillbox killed one bazooka team at the rear door, the other two teams survived.

6 Assaults from two full strength infantry squads failed from the rear door. One squad ran through the rear door and out the slit and was routed, one squad was inside the pillbox and was eliminated by the MG. The routed squad was subsequently eliminated by the MG. Another squad attempted to take out the pillbox from the front quarter out of the firing arc of the MG at close range with no damage inflicted.

Several point blank 75mm rounds from an M10 at the rear door failed to damage the pillbox. At that point I gave up trying to take the pillbox out.

I had half a company of infantry and 3M 10s at the objective flag by that pillbox but could not get the VP for that flag as it stayed at ? as long as the pillbox was viable.

The point to this rather lengthy description is to put up for discussion the difficulty or strategies used for taking out the pillboxes. It would seem the only thing that was effective for me was a point blank shot at the slit by a Sherman on the pillbox on the Tits. I had 4 concrete pillboxes taken out in CMBB by 20mm from armored cars at over 800m in one or two shots.

Please share your strategies or comments on whether the pillboxes are given too much strength. Thank you.

[flamingknives]

First point is that you seem to misunderstand how a pillbox is modelled. As all vehicles, it is represeted by a point (I know you see a 3d model, but as far as the game is concerned, for line of sight, weapon arcs etc it is a point.)

Thus it is not possible to get 'inside' a pillbox. Running through the pillbox just gets you into the frontal fire arc. Incidently, the 'box cannot fire backwards, so cannot target a bazooka team that is actually behind it.

Hardened pillboxes should be hard to kill. The British wouldn't field the AVRE with 290mm petard mortar if a 75mm gun could easily do the job.

Engineers with demo charges and Flamethrowers are supposed to be good. Bazookas should take the door out an allow grenades to get in, but CM doesn't model degredation of armour.

[Sergei]

Put some infantry, preferably engineers or others with demo charges or AT grenades, within 30 metres at the back, and let them assault it on their own. Even if they don't manage to blow it up, the bunker crew should soon find the situation quite undesirable and abandon the place.

[xerxes]

Infantry can take out pb's from through the rear door. 75mm rounds through the door will knock it out also. What's changed is the totally unrealistic capability to knock out PBs from the front with small caliber HE. A good thing since that was rather ahistorical. PBs are now a very serious defensive fortification and make a QB attack signficantly harder then in CMBB.

[CRSutton]

Yes, they are much tougher now, you pretty much have to get behind them, but once you do, they should go pretty quick. I can't understand why you baz did not take it out. PB should be all but invulnerble from the front. 75mm should not take them out too readily.

It is what the good lord created smoke for

[Redwolf]

Use any 20mm autocannon armed vehicle or 20mm AAA.

90% of concrete pillboxes die within the first minute, see my previous thread on the issue ("fix for bunkers doesn't apply to pillboxes?" or somesuch title).

The wooden bunkers withstand the same fire several times better.

[Will Bucko]

I realize that the infantry did not actually go into the pillbox on the screen. I am just describing what it appeared like. The point is that one of the assaults brought them into the firing arc of the pillbox when they assaulted from the rear. They might not be able to fire out the back but there is no other explanation for my bazooka being eliminated unless the blast from being point blank at the rear door killed him. There was no fire being directed at him during the game. There are no engineers or flamethrowers available to the Americans in that Operation. You are stuck with the Order of Battle you have been given.

[fridericus]

i just saw a jackson (MY ! jackson) kill itself by a shot at 26m!.

so its possilbe, that your guys killed themsevels.

[flamingknives]

In that case, don't charge in to the pillbox. Stand off at 15-30m and leave your sqauds alone for a few turns. Chances are they'll take it out.

*Thinks*

Was it a night battle? Friendly fire is pretty nasty when clustered around bunkers.

[Hensworth]

The point we're trying to make is you don't need to actively take out the pillbox yourself. Just get your troops within grenade or satchel charge range (~30m) to the rear or the sides of it and leave them alone. Eventually (and this may take several turns) they will start tossing whatever explosives they have available and the pillbox will be abandoned in due course.

Although it goes faster, you don't need demo charges. Grenades will eventually do the job too. This represents troops sneaking up to the bunker and dropping a grenade through the firing slit.

Flamethrowers are effective and fun of course.

Your zook team definitely took itself out. You should never fire anything remotely explosive at point blank range.

In case you haven't come up against mines yet : works the same way, but you need demo charges for this one and it usually takes even longer.

[Will Bucko]

Ah, I did not realize that they would assault the pillbox if left alone. They did not seem to be doing anything except for the bazookas firing on their own. My assault order must have been the cause of them moving into the firing arc of the PB. I did not know that the bazookas could take themselves out. I thought the computer AI might take into account the stupidity of the player moving the troops too close for safe firing 8=). Thank you all for the tips and advice. It still seemed like a lot of ordnance brought to bear on the rear door of the PB for it not to have any effect or the MG to bail out of it.

[xerxes]

Sometimes squads will be hesitent to attack the PB from the rear. You just have to let them sit until they suck up the courage (or unwrap their grenades, whatever it is.)

[JasonC]

If it is an MG pillbox rather than a gun armed one, the way to take it out is to button a tank or TD and place it inside the covered arc at close range, like under 200m. You will get a firing slit penetration in a minute or two and kill the box. Without its MGs being able to do a thing to you, in reply.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Will Bucko:

It still seemed like a lot of ordnance brought to bear on the rear door of the PB for it not to have any effect or the MG to bail out of it.

You may have come up against a PB with high fanaticism. You may have just had the die rolls go against you too. As they say at the front, **it happens.

Michael

[ December 15, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Other Means]

and while i'm waiting for Santa to drop CMAK into my stocking, does anyone have a pic of a Churchill AVRE blowing one into the stratosphere?

[MeatEtr]

Not to hijack the thread or anything. But does anybody know if Tanks A Lot amazing concrete/wooden bunker mod works with CMAK? The stock graphics are incredibly dull compared to his masterpiece.

Hmmm, i guess i could dl his mod again and check the bmps to see if they match.

*Edit* Well thats that. Answered my own question. They do match.

[ December 16, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: MeatEtr ]