Kingfish Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I have begun work on a small scenario pack that will be based on the battle for St. Lambert-sur-Dives in August '44. To date my reference material consists of what I can find on the web, as well as a copy of "Steel inferno" and "After the battle magazine", which features some great photos of the battle as well as an AAR from Major David Currie. Does anyone know of the OOB of the Canadian force? I know that the initial force consisted of 15 tanks from the South Alberta regiment, and the depleted B company of the 2nd Bn Argyll and Sutherland regiment. I also know that at some point C company joined them. Any other units? Steel inferno mentioned some AT guns, and another company. What of the Germans? After the battle mentioned a Tiger (confirmed by a photo) and a Mark IV defending the major crossroads, with another Mark IV showing up sometime during the first night. A website also mentioned a Panther. Anything else? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Slight correction - it wasn't the 2nd Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Regiment, it was the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada. No battalion number. Technically, the 1st Battalion was in NW Europe and the 2nd Battalion in Canada, but they never used Bn numerals. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (Princess Louise's) were a British Army regiment, with several battalions. Not sure off hand if the 2nd was even in NW Europe. They had battalions in the 15th Scottish Div and the 51st Highland Div if memory serves, as well as in Italy and the Far East. A friend of mine knows a couple of vets who fought with the SAR and the Argylls, I think they may have been at St. Lambert. I'll check for you. Oh, and I hope you meant to say Major David Currie, VC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 Slight correction - it wasn't the 2nd Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Regiment, it was the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada. No battalion number. Technically, the 1st Battalion was in NW Europe and the 2nd Battalion in Canada, but they never used Bn numerals. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (Princess Louise's) were a British Army regiment, with several battalions. Not sure off hand if the 2nd was even in NW Europe. They had battalions in the 15th Scottish Div and the 51st Highland Div if memory serves, as well as in Italy and the Far East. ...jots correction down... So the Argies at St. Lambert were not from the same unit that captured and held Gavrus during Op Epsom? Oh, and I hope you meant to say Major David Currie, VC Yes, my goof. He certainly earned the title. I just found this site which lists "one troops of 17 Pounder Anti-tank guns (SP)" included in the initial attack force. Archers or Achilles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I don't think Canadians participated in Epsom at all, so I'm guessing no. I can look in the SAR history (if you don't have a copy of this yet, for shame, it is the best armoured regiment history ever written from what I can tell) and see what additional info pops up. There were Crusader AA tanks deployed there also, which unfortunately are not included in CM. EDIT - ah, the website you link to is the Sally Horse (SALH or South Alberta Light Horse - the post war amalgamation of the South Alberta Regiment and the Alberta Light Horse). Their regimental association put out the book SOUTH ALBERTAS AT WAR (the SAR history I allude to). I see they spelled Argyll wrong on their page. I'll see what the history has to say about the ID of the 17 pdr TDs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Heya Kingfish. I'm currently reading the SAR history, and I'm right at that chapter. I'll get you any info you'd like. All three sqns of the SAR were present at St. lambert (along with the depleted company of Argyll's about 55 personell originally.) Currie's sqn held the town (or at least the North East section). The germans held the crossroads and bridge at the south end. The other sqn's were to the North of the town in orchards and lanes, without infantry support. RHQ was also present eventually, and stationed itself (with the crusader tanks) on the hill to the NE of town. There were indeed a couple of Panthers present on the German side. I don't recall a Tiger being there on first read-through. This time I'm taking my time and I'll note all the details for you. Curries Sqn went in first (15 tanks) and promtly lost one to "AP fire." It's a GREAT book! I was going to do a battle on same, but I'll bow to your excellence. (And look forward to playing it/them!) Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Ah, no need for me to scan the chapter for you then. Carry on! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Good idea, Michael. (Scanning it.) I took a look at one of the other scenario offerings on the battle for St Lambert-sur-Dives but did not like the map that much. The village, it seemed too big. In the pictures I've seen of the village, it is mostly smallish brick and stone houses. The church, for sure. But not many (if any) large heavy buidings (that would take up a whole tile.) Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Originally posted by Kingfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Oh, and I hope you meant to say Major David Currie, VC Yes, my goof. He certainly earned the title.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 Originally posted by Gpig: There were indeed a couple of Panthers present on the German side. I don't recall a Tiger being there on first read-through. This time I'm taking my time and I'll note all the details for you. Gpig, In the After the battle Mag that I have, Major Currie describes the Tiger defending the main crossroads, and being taken out by infantry which climbed on top and tossed grenades down the hatches. It then shows a photo of the crossroads a day or two later as the infantry clear the town. The Tiger's lower hull is lying by the side of the road, with the Turret in some roadside bushes. A French guide accompaning the author actually found a piece of the Tiger. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kingfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Oh, and I hope you meant to say Major David Currie, VC Yes, my goof. He certainly earned the title.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Heh heh. Wow, that's cool, Kingfish. I don't recall reading anything about infantry huckin' 'nades into the turret of a tiger. Maybe the SAR history just looks at the bigger picture. I'd love to read that AAR. :-D Looks like the SAR history covers the bigger picture, while the after the battle AAR you've got goes into the tactical details. Cool. Seems like an awfully interesting piece of info to just skip over. I'll read that chapter tonight (this time with my glasses ON) and check it out. Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 The SAR may not have been the ones to destroy the Tiger. Could that then account for it not being in their history? Having read the SAR history as well I find this interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I think the SAR and Argyll's were the only ones in the area. (Besides 50,000 fleeing Germans.) I've only got ONE tome as a reference, however. No expert on the matter, I. But that is an interesting idea. Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I figured that, but maybe since the Argyll's destroyed it, the account isn't noted in the SAR history. (That was my point) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 OooooOOOOOoooooh. I get it. (Downloads another brain) Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by Kingfish: So the Argies at St. Lambert were not from the same unit that captured and held Gavrus during Op Epsom? According to an OOB of the units involved in Operation Epsom, the 2nd Battalion The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders were part of the 227th Highland Infantry Brigade of the British VIII Corps. Mike Dorosh is correct, there were no Canadian Units participating in Operation Epsom according to the OOB I have. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael kenny Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Sorry to rain on your parade but the wreck is not a Tiger. Having an interest in this tank I have blown up the pic and it clearly is a Pz IV wreck. The muzzle brake is also a PzIV type. It was only this month that I was able to confirm the ID, until then I too belived it was a Tiger. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Hmm, that is interesting, Michael Kenny. I looked at the picture as well (which Kingfish has kindly forwarded to me) and compared it with a Tiger hull/front end. Then I compared it with a MkIV hull/front end. The wreck in the picture does bear a closer resemblance to a MkIV. Of course, I'm no expert. But your observation seems correct to me. VeeEEEeeery interesting. EDIT: I'm rereading the chapter tonight. It's MUCH better when you take your time. On the morning of the 19th of August, Currie orders his lead troop of Sherman's (now down to 3 tanks) into town while he goes on foot into the town with the infantry to observe. One of his tanks makes it about 300 yards into the village and it is knocked out by AP. Here, the SAR history says that Currie spotted the opposition, "a Mk IV and a Tiger" at the southern end of the village. But later on (same page) the remaining two shermans of this lead troop come into the town as well. Just as Cpl Swede Thuesen's tank comes around the first KO'd sherman, it too is hit by AP and brews up. Then the Infantry take over the lead with Lt. Gil Armour's No. 14 platoon in the advance. They begin clearing houses on either side of the D13. There was little resistance. As they neared the crossroads at the southern end of the village there was no sign of the Tiger but Armour spotted a German Panther tank beside a building and called for volunteers to help him destroy it. After a brisk little action involving Armour exchanging blows with the German tank commander, who left the vehicle, and a grenade lobbed in the open hatch, the Argylls "kept watch over the tank until a Piat was brought up to finish it off." This quieted down the opposition at the southern end of the village and Dave brought his tanks in to support the infantry. This last paragraph is straigh outta the book. Interesting, no? The picture you sent me seems to show a Mk IV hull. Curries AAR calls it a Tiger. But in the SAR book, they call it a Panther. Crazy! EDIT to my Edit: Kingfish I've scanned the great little map of St. Lambert included in the SAR history. I'll email it to you soon. But it is a BIG scan. 3.4MB. Is that too big? [ February 25, 2005, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Gpig ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Ok. A little more info (can't seem to stop). Actually, you might prefer to get this via your private emal, correct? That way there won't be a spoiler here on the forum? The SAR history states which units were in the town first. C sqn. and some support (medical half-track - shot up by the RAF). With B company of the Argyll's, under Maj Ivan Martin. (about 55 all ranks.) It talks about RAF sorties. Weather. Descriptions about the town and river (Dives). Pretty good material for the scenario pack. I'll email you. Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 Originally posted by michael kenny: Sorry to rain on your parade but the wreck is not a Tiger. Having an interest in this tank I have blown up the pic and it clearly is a Pz IV wreck. The muzzle brake is also a PzIV type. It was only this month that I was able to confirm the ID, until then I too belived it was a Tiger. How were you able to confirm the ID? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael kenny Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 If you adjust the contrast on the photo (so only the wreck is visible) you can clearly see it has narrow tracks. Also the bow plate with the spare track on it is too high for a Tiger-in relation to the front sprocket. I really wanted it to be a Tiger as that would have been one less Tiger to track down. If you look in 'Tigers In Combat Vol II' you will see Schneider lists this Tiger as both SS 101 (page 260, 19/8/44) and SS 102 (page 332,19/8/44)! [ February 25, 2005, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: michael kenny ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Not that I have reason to doubt Mr. Kenny, but some Tigers did see action with narrow (transport) tracks, so that alone wouldn't be justification to make a ruling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael kenny Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Michael I know what transport tracks look like and this was not them. As I say I did hope it was from SS 101 but sadly it 'aint. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Very interesting. It does indeed look like a Mk IV. Comparing the bow plate height to front sprocket shows a clear difference between Tiger and MkIV. I'm sold. (But I'm easy.) So the AAR's and pictures I've seen show a Panther and at least 1 Mk IV in stark evidence. But there were repeated sightings of a Tiger tank in those same AAR's. Though no picture of one. I wonder if this is the old case of "Tigers Tigers Everywhere?" Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Wow. All I can say is I look forward to playing these scenarios. Tiger or no Tiger. The FOW in this discussion only increases the anticipation. CM needs a higher rating than +2/all for officers like Major D.V. Currie, VC! And too bad we can't edit the command units to change their ranks. Ren 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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