Need info on 'Gore force'

[Kingfish]

This small detachment was commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Gore of 10th Rifle Brigade, and was deployed either at or just north of the Kasserine pass on Feb 19th.

My question is what was its OOB during Feb 19/20, 1943?

From what I can gather it was composed of 'C' squadron of the 2nd Lothians under the command of Major A.N. Beilby, with 7 Valentine and 4 Crusaders (reference this site ).

I also read accounts of Brit 6 & 25 pdrs in support, but how many and from what unit? Also, was there any infantry support, and if so how much and from what unit?

Thanks in advance

[flamingknives]

The description in "An Army at Dawn" refers to the action only briefly, but no infantry prescence is mentioned. Indeed, survivors of the action are described as

"running north as fast as flapping leg holsters and reveolvers would allow"

This in itself indicates that infantry were not present, as such equipment was specific to armour crewmen. Artillery officers are also mentioned, but no guns.

[Kingfish]

Did a little more online research, and came up with this.

I didn't see any mention of 'Gore Force' but there is mention of another unit, the 10th Royal Buffs.

Here is an excerpt:

"Returning to Thala, Dunphie requested permission to send a battalion to reinforce Stark while the remainder of his command prepared defensive positions along the road between Kasserine and Thala. As dusk fell, Dunphie’s request was approved, and he ordered the 10th Royal Buffs, a composite infantry, armored and artillery battalion to Kasserine."

A good while back I remember reading B.H. Liddel Hart's 'History of the second world war' and he describes 'Gore Force' as being composed of an armored squadron, an infantry company and an artillery battery.

I wonder if 'Gore force' and the 10th Royal Buff taskforce are one and the same

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

My question is what was its OOB during Feb 19/20, 1943?

Ummm, according to the footnotes at the site you originally cite:

'Gore Force' consisted of a company of the 10th Rifle Brigade, a squadron of 2nd Lothians and Border Horse with seven Valentine and four Crusader tanks, a battery of RHA and a troop from 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment, RA.

(12th RHA Regiment was attached to 26th Bde at the time).

W.G.F. Jackson initially refers to Gore Force as the motor battalion of 26th Armored Brigade, reinforced by a squadron of tanks and a battery of field guns. But later, refer's to them as LTC Gore's 10th Rifle Brigade. Nothing about any "10th Buffs" --- though there was a 5th Battalion, the Buffs, lurking about.

This might help you out in the OOB area.

[Kingfish]

LOL! The footnotes had it all along. Thanks VL.

[Andreas]

Kingfish

The Axishistory Forum has a thread on obscure combat formation of the CW here, which has this info on Gore Force:

1)Name: Usually the Force commander, but not always the case.

2)Parent unit of Force if applicable

3)Date of Formation (If Known)

4)Date of Dispersion (If Known)

5)OoB

6) TOE

7)Details of any action fought

8)Source of information

So for example

1) Force Gore (Lt-Col Gore)

2) 10th Rifle Brigade

3) 18/02/3/1943

4) ?

5) C Coy 1oth R.Bde, C Sqn 2nd Lothians, F Bty RHA & Troop from 93rd AT-TK Regt RA

6) 7 Valentine 7 4 Crusader tanks

7) Defensive actions during the German attack at Kasserine, Tunisia

8.) The Med & Middle East Vol IV by Playfair

[Kingfish]

Excellent stuff, thanks for that. The OOBs for Blade force is very helpful, as is the Norweigian site.

Question: I'm assuming that a RHA battery consists of 8 guns, so how many guns in the AT troop? 4?

[Andreas]

Shouldn't that be 12 guns to a troop in the AT Rgt RA? Working from memory here, can't find it in the British Army Handbook.

[JonS]

There are 48 guns to an A-Tk Regt, 12 guns to an A-Tk Bty, 4 guns to an A-Tk Tp (4 btys, each of 3 troops, each of 4 guns). Should all be 6-pr, although there may (did I stress the 'may' enough yet?) have been a tp or two of Pheasants (17-pr on 25-pr carriages) in the regt. For example, the NZ Divs 7th A-Tk Regt recieved their first Pheasants a bit before Medenine (6 March 43), but they were in 8th Army rather than 1st, and tended to get equipment later than the 1st Army formations which came straight from England.

In CMAK, the guns would be towed by either a truck or a universal carrier. Don't forget to include a Pn HQ and/or a pair of Section HQs to control the guns, and incude one bren per two guns. Add an extra universal carrier or two (and/or jeeps) to transport to command elements.

Same goes for the 25-pr.s if you are going to have them on-board, except of course their tows are trucks.

Edit to clarify: F Bty, 12th(?) RHA would be a Fd Bty, with 8 x 25-pr. They are organised in two troops of 4, with each troop being further organised into two sections of two.

Edit: Organisation of A-Tk Regt corrected.

Regards

JonS

[ March 02, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Kingfish]

Thanks Jon, now if you can tell me how I can find more free time to design all these scenarios. Platamon is progressing ever so slowly, and now I'm compelled to do a Gore force / 10th Panzer Op. I have finished the Kiwi raid on the El Mreir depression, but still need to test / tweak it.

Maybe if I quit my job...

[JonS]

Post above corrected.

Oh, by the way, note that an artillery A-Tk troop had 4 guns, while the A-Tk Pn in an inf bn had 6 guns.

At this stage the A-Tk Pn would have either been 2-pr or 6-pr. It's hard to say which definativly - a few months earlier and they'd definately be 2-pr, a few months later (i.e., the invasion of Sicily and after) they'd be definately 6-pr.

Also, the army is a bit of a problem - I think 1st Army may have been more likely to have had 6-prs than 8th Army in the inf bns.

As for time - I suggest you give up work. And sleep.

Regards

JonS

[Mick15]

Re Gore Force

According to the Official History Gore Force was constituted from Vicforce at Thala on 19/20 February.

Vicforce was an ad hoc unit collected under Brigadier Dunphie and despatched from Sbiba to protect Thala and comprised :

17/21 Lancers

2 Lothian and Border Horse

collectively fielding 25 Valentines and 30 Crusaders (half a dozen of the latter being close support versions with 3in howitzer)

10 Rifle Brigade minus its AT platoon and with only 40 carriers (remember that '10 Rifle Brigade' denotes a single battalion)

2/5bn Leicesters

22 x 25 pdrs at least six of which were 12 RHA

12 x 6pdr AT guns - parent unit not mentioned

12 x Bofors AA - parent unit not mentioned

(parent units are most likely to be 6 Armoured Divisions divisional troops)

2 trps armoured cars from Derbyshire Yeomanry

1 trp of 8 Field Sdqdn RE

Distance from Kasserine to Thala was approximately 25 miles, Dunphie was ordered to protect Thala but also conserve his forces to allow movement back to Sbiba if required. Gore Force was detached and advanced from Thala towards Kasserine after Dunphie personally inspected American positions at Kasserine on 19 Feb and concluded an axis breakthrough was "imminent". He first asked permission to reinforce the Americans - this was refused by 1st army HQ but he was allowed to advance a small force to delay any axis move from Kasserine to Thala while the majority of Vicforce was held there (Thala) and prepared defensive positions. The small force was Gore Force.

Gore Force was

Lt Col Gore

1 x Coy 10 Rifle Brigade

10 x Valentines of 2 Lothians

6 x 25 pdrs of 12 RHA

6 x 6 pdr AT guns

Also coming under command were 3 x Grants, 5 x M10s and a "scattering" of infantry from unidentified american units scattered in the Kasserine Pass fighting.

Gore Force took up position on a low undulating ridge just beyond the north end of Kasserine pass at 0400 on 20 February. By 1000 most effective resistance from American forces in the pass had ended. Axis troops 'bumped' Gore Force about midday and at 1600 a major attack was developed.

Between 0900 and 1600 the American Grants, M10s 6pdrs and infantry mentioned above had joined Gore Force.

I'll keep the what happened next out (as a potential spoiler) so over to your scenario - I look forward to it.

[Mick15]

RE Gore Force - addendum

Sorry the list of American units attaching themselves to Gore Force should be

3 x Grants, 5 x M-10s, 3 x 6pdr and a "scattering" of infantry.

I missed the 6 pdrs.

Btw the 10 Royal Buffs in your source should almost certainly be one coy of the 10 Rifle Brigade. The reference to the 'Buffs' is an error.

[Stalin's Organ]

That would of course be 10 (Bn), The Rifle Brigade - the Rifle Brigade being the Regiment....jsut to confuse our American readers!!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

the 10th Royal Buffs.

Ah I missed that. There are no 'Royal Buffs'. There is the Royal Kent Regiment, which is called 'The Queen's Own Buffs' for whatever weird reason that escapes me, and that would probably make me raise an eyebrow and have a sip of tea, if it was explained to me. I believe their museum is in Canterbury. One day I have to go.

More info than you could care for

Jon, thanks for correcting me on the AT guns. I mixed up my troops and platoons again. Bah.

[Kingfish]

Thanks again for everyone's help, and keep 'em coming if you have any more info. Good topo maps would be sweet.

Jon,

I'm almost certain Gore Force had 6pdrs as opposed to the 2pdrs. So far everything points in that direction.

Mick,

Thanks for the additional info. I knew about the M3 (although my source said 6x Lees not 3x Grants), but didn't know about the M10s or additional 6 pdrs. The time of day is very helpful. Is your source online?

Andreas,

Thanks for the link. I also found this, but neither one appears to be the same one mentioned in my second link. The lineage for the Queen's own begins in 1961, and the Royal East Kents fought as part of Brit 8th army.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Andreas,

Thanks for the link. I also found this, but neither one appears to be the same one mentioned in my second link. The lineage for the Queen's own begins in 1961, and the Royal East Kents fought as part of Brit 8th army.

Ah yes. I completely forgot about amalgation. Scandalous, really. Almost as bad as giving up on the numbers and abandoning buying commissions. I wonder what Monty would have said had he... oh wait, we do know, and he hated it. Anyway, where are my slippers and pipe. Now, as your link shows, they were still not the 'Royal Buffs' in 1942, just 'The Buffs', which is quite sufficient really. Toodlepips.

[Captain Pies]

Andreas

" Regiments were known by colonels' names before 1751, and there was another Howard regiment, so they became known by the colour of their facings: "The Buff Howards" and "The Green Howards". That's how "The Buffs" and "The Green Howards" eventually became the official names of the regiments much later."

from This Site

Hope you've got a brew on

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Captain Pies:

Hope you've got a brew on

Thanks - about to get a brew on, but no pies unfortunately. Someone ate all of them. May have to check the delights on offer by the local sandwich makers for some nourishment.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Jon,

I'm almost certain Gore Force had 6pdrs as opposed to the 2pdrs. So far everything points in that direction.

Right, that is what I would expect of a Royal Artillery A-Tk troop in that place at that time. The diversion into 2-prs was only in relation to the infantry battalions own A-Tk platoon. However it would appear - from the info posted by one of the other posters in this thread - that the A-Tk pn was otherwse engaged anyway, and therefore not part of Gore force.

By-the-by, I wonder if the confusion over Royal Buffs vice Rifle Brigade could be due to both being RB when abbreviated. Thus, when presented with "10th RB", and unable to find any furhter references, the researcher in question incorrectly decided that it was the Royal Buffs?

Regards

JonS