Tank platoons vs individual

[Cabe Booth]

What is the advantage of grouping tanks into platoons or group with a CO? I know they get the bonuses of a commander, but I have lost my CO tank before and and then my other tank were out of command. Does this mean I lose a lot of control of thier actions? On the other hand, would it just be better/ cheaper to buy veteran or crack individual units?

Or is the crack tank platoon the best way to go?

I have used mainly individual purchases, only played a few scenarios with tanks grouped.

Can someone clarify or point me to a thread?

[Sergei]

In a quick battle, buying tanks in platoons is cheaper than buying them individually.

[Bonxa]

I never go for crack units, regular is good enough for me, occasionally veteran for key units in the AT-war. Quantity is far better than quality is most cases.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Cabe:

Or is the crack tank platoon the best way to go?

Don't waste your points on high end purchases. They rarely perform to the level of their cost, and die just as easily as a lower level purchase. You also get fewer assets to work with when you splurge on the expensive (and more often than not unrealistic) toys.

For instance, a crack platoon of standard US M4A3 in July '44 cost 872 points. Add a regular rifle platoon (gotta have some infantry) and the cost shoots to 1016 points.

Now buy the same tank platoon only at a regular experience level. Add 2 each of rifle '44 platoons, 60mm mortars teams and 5-man M1919 MMG teams. Cost = 1011 points.

-or-

Buy individual tanks and mix the types to get the best of both worlds. For instance, buy 2 reg M4A3 and 2 with the extra armor and 76mm gun. Keep the 2 rifle platoons. Drop one of each of the mortar and MMG teams (but raise the experience level of the remaining two to vets) and toss in a couple of BARs. Cost = 1017 points.

You can handle more situations and survive more engagements with the second and third options than you would with the first.

[Cabe Booth]

all good stuff. Thanks all. All I have to do now is make it through my current PBEM games with my old buying habits. One already went down last night horribly, so only a few more to go.

[JasonC]

Well I priced the following against a crack US M4A3 Sherman platoon plus a single crack US rifle 45 platoon, or a budget of 1068 points. Rather than pay for souped up crew quality on vanilla infantry-killer tanks, I recommend -

US

1 veteran 76W Sherman

2 regular 75W Sherman

2 veteran M-10 TDs

1 regular rifle 45 platoon

+2 veteran bazooka (3 all told)

+1 veteran 60mm mortar (for PAK)

+1 regular M-20 scout car

HQ and mortar go on the 76mm Sherman, which is your reserve. Scout group is a dismounted squad split into halves, plus the regular bazooka riding the M-20 scout car. Remaining squads go on the Sherman 75Ws, each with a vet zook as well, which are each paired with an M-10. The M-10 trails in each pair, "clean".

Scout group looks for stuff, sets initial zook ambush somewhere, baits with the M-20 to draw vehicles forward if it lives that long. Shermans kill infantry, squads mopping up positions plastered. M-10s bushwack anything that tries to stop one of them. HQ and mortar deploy to KO any gun found while tanks avoid. 76mm Sherman can replace any lost AFV in the formation.

Everything meant to duel an enemy tank is veteran quality, plenty of ground shooters, plenty of infantry killing firepower, plenty of 76mm to kill most critters, etc.

Brits - Firefly approach

2 veteran Sherman V Firefly

2 regular Sherman V

1 veteran rifle platoon

1 regular FO, 4.2 inch or 4.5 inch

+1 veteran team (2nd PIAT with 4.2, Bren with 4.5)

HQ and FO go on one firefly, squad with teams on all the rest. Non Firefly Shermans lead. You deal with PAK by calling in arty on them.

Brits - numbers approach

Veteran Sherman V platoon (4 vehicles)

2 veteran Wolverine

veteran infantry platoon

2nd veteran PIAT

veteran MMG carrier

[dieseltaylor]

Is there some assumptions here on weather, terrain, night or day that have not been explained?

BTW I think that the Germans intrinsic infantry strength and variety of armour to choose from actually make them pretty lethal against the Allies up until late war when the British infantry becomes much more butch.

I would give the Axis about a 5% advantage in terms of winning more battles during the CMAK period. How much would change if rarity were ignored is an interesting point. I am talking of battalion size ME battles.

[JasonC]

I never have rariety on. There is no question it is pro German.

Here is a typical later war Brit mech force for a large ME

August 1944, Italy (CMAK), 3000 point ME, combined arms, mech parent

2 veteran Wolverine

4 veteran Sherman III (late) (platoon)

6 veteran MMG carrier

1 veteran 40mm Bofors AA

2 veteran 3 inch mortar, on map

1 regular M5A1 halftrack (prime mover)

3 veteran Rifle companies

2 regular 4.5 inch radio FOs

1 regular Spitfire VIII, strafing

The strength is in the infantry fighting ability at medium range, particularly staying power.

For the armor war you have 2 76mm shooters, 4 75mm shooters, and 9 PIATs. The 40mm Bofors may be able to help vs. light armor, as well as its plane stopping role. The Spit will also hurt German light vehicles.

In the infantry war, the HE firepower is very large, from the huge ammo loads of the plain Shermans. The 4.5 inch are 184 blast and 40 rounds apiece, and the 3 inches are high ammo - typically 120 rounds of 35 blast mortar fire.

The infantry fights best at 150 yards or so, beyond the range of most SMGs and far enough that vets in cover drink up enemy ammo with their rally power. You outlast ordinary German squads. There are 1350 squad shots, and another 900 MMG carrier shots. The MMG carriers act as your basic machineguns, pairs of them at company level picking targets to keyhole against.

The halftrack repositions 3 inches first, and can move the Bofors if necessary. It is too thin to use it as another MG platform until late, but does have 2 MGs and bottomless ammo. The 3 inches main job is gun killing, to spare the plain Shermans having to duel them.

The force also has good smoke ability, a Brit signature. This comes from the 2 inches and from the tanks. Mask some while hitting others, etc.

The main dangers are (1) losing the armor war prematurely, before the Shermans get to deliver their HE to mess up enemy infantry and (2) engaging automatic-armed German infantry at ranges too close, too soon, instead of wearing them out at medium range, making full use of rally power and ammo depth.

The key to getting the former to work is simply to force his tanks to come to you. Do this by leading with infantry and having your plain Shermans hit enemy infantry ahead of his tanks, without advancing too aggressively themselves. When he sends tanks forward to get your plain Shermans, drag him past PIAT ambushes, crossfire with other Shermans, or go after individual targets with hunting Wolverines. If he comes all in an armored fist, smoke that fist and pick off the first ones back into LOS.

If you deliver most of the HE at enemy infantry and conduct the infantry vs infantry fight at the right ranges, he won't have enough manpower left both alive and with ammo, to hold to the end.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

One note on quality which you may or may not agree with:

Quality does help sometimes. While I agree that crack tends to be too much I never buy green tanks if I can help help it. Winning the armour fight is half the battle and green tanks have a serious downside. Where as green infantry can still put out lethal fire, with tanks it's really hit and miss and there is no middle ground. In a dual with tanks I generally find it worth it to buy better quality tanks tanks so I can get that first hit in. Same with ATGs. That extra quality gives you a better chance to hit and helps the gun keep up a steady fire if it itself comes under fire. Green gun crews can't be relied to hit with the first few shots and are too easily suppressed. also, attacking infantry should at least be regular so they can keep an attack going despite being fired upon. More then veteran is probably overdoing things. Green infantry attacks stall too often, thus not allowing you to press the attack. On defence however, green infantry is definitely the way to go.

Ofcourse all things are reliant on the situation you find yourself in. Allied tanks shine in close in situations. With fast and fast turreted Shermans in a build up area green is the way to go. THe loss of accuracy is far outweighed by the typical firing distance being so small that green tankers too can reliably hit with the first shot or wo. In such situations the extra tank or two you can buy is a better asset then some crack crew with l33t gunnery skills. It's the reverse on wide open plains, where veteran or even crack crews shine with their ability to hit from long range. Especially the German tanks can benefit from this, certainly mid war when the Allies lack the heavy hitters to penetrate from long range.

Ammo levels is, as pointed out, something you need to keep an eye on. Especially the 'better' German squads can run out of ammo quickly. However, I suggest don't overly focus on it when buying your gear. 9/10 times you'll run out of equipment before you run out of ammo. sAme with the oodles of HE green Shermans can chuck. However tempting this prospect is there is a very good chance your Shermans will die before before they get to fully utilize this big ammo advantage.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Where as green infantry can still put out lethal fire, with tanks it's really hit and miss and there is no middle ground.

Tanks vs. infantry. Rookie infantry versus tanks (close combat) results in dead footmen, while green tanks versus infantry (stand-off attack) still results in dead footmen.

So there is middle ground after all.

As to the ammo of Shermans, it's an important point. To get the bang you paid your bucks for, be 'area fire' happy even if it means that Luigi will have to rebuild his pizzeria.