Help with an amazing! new C&C idea for CMX2

[Mr. Tittles]

I see the SOP/Waypoint idea as the effect of a company/battalion level of command abstraction.

The ability to edit/modify SOP/Waypoint models Company/Platoon HQ battle command abstraction.

The effect SOP has on individual order recieving units in the form of order menu limitations shows experience, drills, training, response to enemy firepower, etc.

These three things would go a long way towards making the game much more realistic and challenging (and maybe fun).

[hoolaman]

But (correct me if I'm wrong), there is nothing to stop you creating a "Borg-like swarm" of units to respond to a threat over on your flank.

[Mr. Tittles]

I think your wrong. A borg-like swarm would need waypoints to get anywhere quick. If there was no waypoints, then substantial delays would be suffered.

[hoolaman]

Then again you get into the territory of preventing a squad from moving simply because a company HQ has not told it to.

Squads must be able to move at will to get their job done. Even if told to defend, a squad would have the option of moving to a more secure position, or doing some attacking.

I confess I don't really understand your concept.

Under your plan when can a squad change or set its SOP/dispostition and get access to all commands?

Does a company HQ have to order them to attack or something.

Perhaps you could explain again running through a few turns of CM action with your idea.

[Halberdiers]

Reading you people , I would suggest:

What about an INTERACTIVE SQUAD-MENU? (as with the sherman the game ask "Use main gun"?,the game could ask "Use SQUAD-MENU"?)

Yes , yes I say only for the tactics purposes of the squad . For tactics movement of the squad too.

For example , if you want to change the house , this not a "company-operational" order. The squad order must to be with a inmediatly tactic purpose. For example ,if you want to move to another house this must to be with a squad purpose:" Assaulting" enemy units in this house,"Hidding" in this house etc.

For example the order "WITHDRAW" or "NEXT-TARGET". They are a SQUAD-Orders with a inmediatly PURPOSE.

This machinegun could "move" , but for to say that it is a SQUAD-SOP must to indicate what is the inmediatly purpose. For example: move+area fire over the german flag. Because this is a "Squad SOP" as "Shoot and Scoot".

This INTERACTIVE "SQUAD-SOP" not cancel the HQ-Company orders. During the Squad-SOP "move order" , the Company-SOP "move order" NOT must TO BE CANCELED, similar as occur with a "PAUSE TIME".

To make it CLEAR TO THE PLAYER, the role of SQUAD-LEADER that he play in this moment, I suggest the use of Similar interactive screen as when the sherman select the "main gun":

And IN THIS MOMENT add to the interactive SQUAD "orders-screen" the photo of the SQUAD-Leader who send the order. Yes, I say,that the photo of the SQUAD-Leader must appear in the interactive menu screen of the squad.The developers can add , if it is possible , the voice if you can ear or a hand signal. Then ,You no need the picture of the leader down in the main bar. You can DELETE the picture of the SQUAD-LEADERs in the main bar , That it is a cause of CONFUSION!.

Moreover , the picture of the HQ-UNITS(Platoon,Company,Battalion) could be remain in the main screen . As now it is. And in the screen of the "menu order" could be add a "runner photo" , or "radio photo", or "leader face photo" (if it is face to face). That explain the type of comunication between HQ-UNITS.

[ October 28, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[c3k]

Gents,

Frankly, I admit to being somewhat confused. (Not an unusual state for me...) My understanding of SOP's would be something used for REACTIVE purposes. The orders menu would be used for PREDICTIVE purposes. I'll expand on what I mean by that.

For PREDICTIVE purposes, you, the player, commander, general, war-god, whatever, want your units to DO something. You order an advance or cover arc, or area fire. Great. The units will try to do that. If nothing else happens to them, they will accomplish their tasks.

For REACTIVE purposes, you (war-god, etc.) have selected from a list of possible SOP's, the ONE SOP you want that unit(s) to apply if something happens. What something? Well, if fired on by an anti-tank weapon, how about immediate return fire, discharge smoke grenades, seek cover at high speed. That could be a possible SOP for a tank. (I'd use a check-off menu with drop down variables.) Or, for a squad, if fired on, run like hell for 300 meters. Whatever. However, the SOP is only used as a conditional - based on outside events. Not as somesort of insulation from player control, but more as a guide for the TacAI.

Is there a differing set of understanding for the use of SOP's? If so, can someone expand on that?

Thanks,

Ken

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Then again you get into the territory of preventing a squad from moving simply because a company HQ has not told it to.

Squads must be able to move at will to get their job done. Even if told to defend, a squad would have the option of moving to a more secure position, or doing some attacking.

I confess I don't really understand your concept.

Under your plan when can a squad change or set its SOP/dispostition and get access to all commands?

Does a company HQ have to order them to attack or something.

Perhaps you could explain again running through a few turns of CM action with your idea.

I will do that and show how my concept does allow what you seem to be struggling with. It will take a few hours contemplation.

I would also like to point out that you could reread soem of my past posts in this thread and see that I ahve addressed soem areas. But a multiturn description of play may be useful.

I specifically want to point out that many units in teh game, bazooka/LMG/crews, may not be led by an NCO but perhaps is a grouping of PFC/privates.

[ October 28, 2004, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

I would like to preface the example with first saying that the only changes will be the use of waypoints, SOPs and menu limitations. All other aspects of the game will remain the same.

The scenario is a hasty attack.

Background:

You are a German commander that is modeled as a Bn commander of a Panzergrenadier unit. This morning, a PG company in 251/1 and a StuG company (-) advanced past a farm area to attack a small town that sat along a river. They have been involved in hard combat all day and need to be relieved. You have sent a relief company of PG in trucks along with mechanics and supplies to take over the defense of the town. Unfortunately, the truck borne unit was ambushed at the farm area on its way to the town. Either the defenders there have infilitrated or decided to let the first unit through and attack the second. In any case..

Combat Mission:

Reorg the ambushed elements. Most of the truck mounted units survived but one of its platoons was hit bad. The mechanics are isolated ahead and holding out the best they can (they are modeled by tired LMG units). Neutralize the farm position, keep your losses low, and relieve the forces up ahead by advancing units off the opposite edge of the map.

Forces:

Depleted PG company

Bn HQ w/251/1

StuG platoon

FO 105mm

251 w/81mm

Eneemy Forces:

Some HMG

Light infantry forces scattered

ATG or Infantry guns

Scattered riflemen

light mortar

Believed to be remnents of a Regt that was destroyed earlier. Determined resistance but little initiative seen in trying to follow up the ambush.

[Mr. Tittles]

Pre-Scenario Planning:

Overall Plan is to use firepower/smoke to neutralize the enemy positions and allow the forces to advance up the tree lined road with minimal casualties.

Artillery will put HE on the farm and then switch to smoke. 81mm will put smoke out as well as StuG. The 81mm and StuG will then advance forward and place direct fire on all targets that prevent the advance.

The infantry is organized in three manuver elements. Two platoons and one 'platoon' led by the company HQ. They will use bounds where each platoon will advance while the other two provide cover. HMG and enemy guns are primary targets.

The Bn HQ will act as a reserve and stay with the StuGs and haltracks. If there is a command emergency where the junior HQs are destroyed, he can move forward.

[aka_tom_w]

thanks for reading and posting

MOSTLY

I was just trying to draw attention to the

previous dicussion around these issues in that long

and OLD thread

and yes it was ALL pre-CMBB

-tom w

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024461;p=1

This thread is worth reading through. I like some of the ideas in it. It is actually pre-CMBB? Some of the ideas seem advanced.

I don't buy that CM cant be a quasi-command/small-scale tactical fun game. Unfortunately, the player has been bred into the menu at the squad scale mentality and seeing all and all the other foibles.

[Halberdiers]

Is there a differing set of understanding for the use of SOP's? If so, can someone expand on that?

In my point of view ,for example do not know if "Move to contact" is PREDICTIVE or REACTIVE. But I think that there is no effect on the "level of command".

In any case,what it is relevant ,I think, is the inmediatly purpose or the indirect purpose of any action (Predictive or Reactive).Because the purpose is the difference between Tactical vs Operational.

I think that what the people discuss about "Command-Control" is a try to give to CM an accurate level of "operational" game. And it is OK , if this not destroy the core of CM = The Squad-Level.

[ October 28, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[jim crowley]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I was just trying to draw attention to the

previous dicussion around these issues in that long

and OLD thread

and yes it was ALL pre-CMBB

-tom w

[Mr. Tittles]

Ive given it some thought and the different SOPs and the effect on menus needs to be worked out first. I am only doing a Waypoint-SOP-Menu-limitation (at the squad level). That is, I am not going into the platoon level SOP options in this example.

The basic play will be:

1 Activate Platoon. Simple Menu pops up at platoon HQ...

a. Change SOP

b. Change Waypoint

c. Issue orders to squads

[ October 28, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[aka_tom_w]

Hi Jim

its good to see you are still around too

I am not playing any CMxx games now

because %100 of my computer time is one Mac OS X

and I no longer have a dual boot laptop

BUT the other half of this great game

and company is this forum and it still works GREAT

in Safari on Mac OS X.

SO

since this Borg thing and Relative Spotting issue and this thread came along with all those suggestions about C&C and delays

and the borg response swarnm

I could NOT help but post about how this VERY issue was discussed to death 2.5 years ago BEFORE CMBB was released

I am VERY keen to see what they can offer us in CMX2 as

they claim it will run on Mac OS X so then I will have a new

and fresh Fix of CMX CRACK!

good to hear from you...

-tom w

Originally posted by jim crowley:

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

It seems to me that the problem of borg spotting is that units act on information that they would not have in real life. Now, I see only two ways of addressing this problem. One is to deny the player the information that only a handful of units have. The other is to prevent the player from performing actions that would only be performed if the particular unit had the information. Of course, each solution means players lose some control over their units.

For example, suppose there is a squad and a Sherman in a town, hiding behind some buildings. The player sends the squad out beyond the town, through some heavy woods to where they spot a halftrack in the open. With borg spotting, the player can immediately send the Sherman after the halftrack. The first way to fix this is to prevent the player from seeing the halftrack because only one of his units knows about it. This, of course, means that the player can’t command his squad to do anything about the halftrack, even though the squad itself is aware of the halftrack. A possible solution is to let the TacAI control the squad’s actions in situations like this, but this means giving up some of the control that it seems a lot of CM players like, as well as improving the AI, as others have pointed out. Another question this solution raises is at what point does a spotted unit become revealed to the player? Unless all of his units are aware of the enemy unit, borg spotting will still be an issue.

The other solution is to prevent the player from performing actions that are only performed because of information that the player has, but his particular units don’t. In this case, it would mean preventing the Sherman from being given orders to go after the halftrack that it doesn’t know is there, or perhaps implementing a big enough command delay that it would make it next to impossible to execute such an order in a timely fashion. How you distinguish between the player sending his Sherman after the halftrack and sending his Sherman to the same location because that’s where he wants it regardless of the halftrack is beyond me.

What I was trying to address with a comand zone or command radius is desrcibed in the post from that very old thread above. The only workable solution to this problem I have seen comes from my command zone idea.

Solution: The squad is sent forward through heavy woods using a platoon HQ ordered waypoint, giving the squad a 50m wide corrdidor that it may advance through.

The squad spots the halftrack. When it spots the enemy unit (not before), the NCO may (on initiative) change the path of the platoon ordered waypoint to take some effective action against the halftrack. OR the radius around the squad instantly extends out to 100 m radius to allow manouvering. Inside these zones, the squad can act free of command influence ie. no command delay at all. Because they are in the area they were ordered to be.

There is then a delay before the presence of the halftrack is reported to the platoon commander. When it is reported, the player can use the platoon HQ to give an order to the Sherman to move forward, and/or give a new platoon level waypoint to the squad, and another squad, which will have a large command delay as appropriate.

For those who think a command radius would limit what you can do with a platoon or squad, check out this picture. A 150m radius around a whole platoon allows you to send it up a corridor that takes in all the likely cover you might want. If you send it into an area with no cover that is your own fault. Preventing it from leaving this area is intended to only provide limitations at a higher command level, not for your squads on the ground. Remember using this model the squad can do anything inside the zone at any time.

Command radius pic (135 Kb)

Remember the initial plan, as well as the lower level orders and the tactical movement at squad level are all planned out by you the player.

If you initial plan is flawed, or the plan is perfect but executed poorly, you can't blame either the sarge or the major.

[Halberdiers]

About Communication:

Menu orders:SEND communication to own Squad or AFV:

a-voice,

b-hand signal,

c-Radio (artillery support),etc

Main Bar:RECEIVE communication from the HQ-unit:

1-Voice,

2-Hand Signal,

3-Runner,

4-Radio,

5-Other..

[ October 29, 2004, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[Halberdiers]

In any case it is clear the Role of Squad/platoon leaders, but I want to ask:

What would be the role of Company/Battalion HQ ?

[ October 29, 2004, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Halberdiers ]

[aka_tom_w]

GREAT Post!

"The other solution is to prevent the player from performing actions that are only performed because of information that the player has, but his particular units don’t. In this case, it would mean preventing the Sherman from being given orders to go after the halftrack that it doesn’t know is there, or perhaps implementing a big enough command delay that it would make it next to impossible to execute such an order in a timely fashion. How you distinguish between the player sending his Sherman after the halftrack and sending his Sherman to the same location because that’s where he wants it regardless of the halftrack is beyond me."

this part is of specific interest to me:

"How you distinguish between the player sending his Sherman after the halftrack and sending his Sherman to the same location because that’s where he wants it regardless of the halftrack is beyond me."

can someone tell me the answer to that??

what if you wanted your units to go in the direction of the enemy units IRRESPECTIVE of whether or not you as the player/commander know (OR COULD know OR COULD NOT know) of the presense of the enemy units in that location? Why should there be a penalty (command dely or otherwise) JUST because you wanted to send some units ALL the way across the map on a whim or a hunch????

that is a HUGE issue IMHO

your comments???

-tom w

[ October 29, 2004, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

There is then a delay before the presence of the halftrack is reported to the platoon commander.

but in that proposal when does the player know about the presense of the halftrack?

because the player orders all the units he wants in the direction

of the threat as soon as the player is aware of the threat.

that is the issue....

(is it not)

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

I would like to try to Quote this again

I think this one post is specifically relevant to what we are working on here...

Big Time Software

unregistered

posted April 26, 2002 11:27 PM    

           

U8lead asked:

quote:

Do units in C&C spot and ID better then the same units out of C&C in the current game?

And if so, do any of the HQ bonuses (possibly combat bonus) apply to spotting and ID?

If units out of C&C had a substantialy reduced positive ID range would that help Borg ID?

END QUOTE

Steve Replies:

No, no, and no

Steve Says:

Why should a unit out of C&C be able to see less far? How is that more realistic? And if it can't see out as far, but in real life should, how does that affect the realistic ability of that individual unit to respond to the oncoming threat? Should a Tiger Tank with a Crack crew sit around NOT spotting an ISU-152 which it should plainly see, just because it doesn't have radio contact with BN HQ? I think not I also think we would have people screaming at us until we "fixed it or did somefink"

This is one of the fundamental problems I have seen in discussions like this. And that is thinking that unrealistically penalizing an individual unit somehow makes the game more realistic. At best it is a wash. At worst, it makes the game on the whole less realistic.

For example, not allowing a unit out of C&C to do anything until it is in C&C is totally unrealistic. Such a system simply swaps in one Borg behavior for another. It doesn't make the game any more realistic, but instead hobbles real life flexibility to the point of making the game unplayable and a joke of a simulation. Don't believe me? Try this one out...

Let us assume that units have to be in C&C with their higher HQs to pass on information and receive orders. OK, can anybody tell me what would happen, under this system, if the BN HQ unit got whacked on the first turn by a lucky artillery bombardment? Would the player just sit there staring at a screen totally lacking friendly and enemy units? Or would all the friendly units show up but the player couldn't do anything or yield any information about themselves or what they see?

The above situation illustrates why removing realistic tactical control is not the right direction to go towards. Because if you follow it to its logical conclusion (i.e. the ultimate realistic state), this is what you wind up with.

Honestly folks, your feedback is appreciated. But I for one am very glad some of you are gamers and not game designers

Steve

[Mr. Tittles]

If a Bn HQ is KOd, then the plan may go forward if its at a jump off point. It would not be very flexible and very hard to change at all once contacts were made.

In that thread where this BTS response comes from, its NOT suggested that units see less (they spot the same), but rather they ID less (pass on specifics that they themselves may not even really know). So its hard to think that this person read that whole other thread.

[ October 29, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

When I have finished the C&C example, I will do a big cut and paste rather than dropping it in here piecemeal.

[Mr. Tittles]

For the example, the following SOPs are available

1. Attack!

2. Movement

3. Contact

4. Defend

5. Withdrawl

There could be others but these will be used for demonstartive purposes.

Attack! has the following effects on order menus. The available orders are

a. Target

b. Assault

c. Advance

d. Rotate

e. Sneak

f. Split Squad

..and movement..

Movement

a. Run

b. Move

c. Target

d. Rotate

...and contact..

Contact

a. Move to Contact

b. Sneak

c. Target

d. Rotate

e. Covered arc

f. Split squad

g. Hide

...Defend..

Defend

a. Target

b. Sneak

c. Covered arc

d. Hide

..Withdrawl

a. Withdraw

b. Hide

c. Sneak

The scenario is a hasty attack.

Background:

You are a German commander that is modeled as a Bn commander of a Panzergrenadier unit. This morning, a PG company in 251/1 and a StuG company (-) advanced past a farm area to attack a small town that sat along a river. They have been involved in hard combat all day and need to be relieved. You have sent a relief company of PG in trucks along with mechanics and supplies to take over the defense of the town. Unfortunately, the truck borne unit was ambushed at the farm area on its way to the town. Either the defenders there have infilitrated or decided to let the first unit through and attack the second. In any case..

Combat Mission:

Reorg the ambushed elements. Most of the truck mounted units survived but one of its platoons was hit bad. The mechanics are isolated ahead and holding out the best they can (they are modeled by tired LMG units and a section HQ). Neutralize the farm position, keep your losses low, and relieve the forces up ahead by advancing units off the opposite edge of the map.

Forces:

Depleted PG company

Bn HQ w/251/1

StuG platoon

FO 105mm

251 w/81mm

Enemy Forces:

Some HMG

Light infantry forces scattered

ATG or Infantry guns

Scattered riflemen

light mortar

Believed to be remnents of a Regt that was destroyed earlier. Determined resistance but little initiative seen in trying to follow up the ambush.

Plan

The forces under your command are 6 'platoon' elements. Two PG platoons proper (A and B platoons) and another PG 'platoon' under the company HQ (C platoon, he is commanding remains of one platoon that was hit in ambush). The mechanics 'platoon' are up ahead and out of C&C and therefore have a DEFEND SOP automatically. They are 3 Lmgs with low ammo, tired and there is a section HQ in charge. The Stug unit with 3 vehicles is another platoon and the Bn HQ with his haltrack and the mortar halftrack and FO form the remaining 'platoon'.

The map is very flat with the road running up the center. The farm is to the right and is out of LOS due to a small rise between your units and the enemy units. The road has scattered trees along its length with small patches of brush and wood every 50-75m or so. The cutoff mechanics are in one of these patches of woods down the road.

The pre-planning starts with giving each of the infantry PG platoons (A B and C) severel SOP and waypoints. The platoon is selected by double-right clicking the platoon HQ. A SOP menu pops up. The first SOP selected is Contact and a waypoint is then generated from the HQ unit (like the way a LOS string works). The Waypoint string is stretched along the road to the first patch of woods. The SOP is then switched to Attack!. The next waypoint string is shorter (the unit will basically be under Attack! a short distance) and stretches to the patch of brush. The other platoons are then given similar waypoints along the same road, but with alternating SOPs. The effect is that they will be able to push up the road and cover each other. The scenario is only 10 turns and the units must use some run and move commands if they are to get down the road and exit the map. Therefore one platoon will always be running so as to leapfrog the others (as they assault or fire or move slowly).

The Stug unit is then selected and given a SOP of Contact and the waypoints are layed out so that they round the slight rise and the farm will come into view. The waypoints then lead to the road so that the StuG unit can also exit the board if they can.

Finally the Bn HQ unit is selected and the SOP is also contact. The mission of the mortar HT is to bring smoke along the road between the moving platoons and the farm. The FO will pick this up when he gets the farm under HE and then switches to smoke. The StuG platoon will also deliver smoke but has the primary mission of attacking any heavy weapons that slow the advance.

[ October 31, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Example of Play

The German player activates the first PG platoon by selecting the HQ (platoon A). The platoon is under SOP contact at the moment. The platoon level menu pops up and reads:

1. Issue orders

2. Change waypoint

3. Change SOP

He chooses 1. and starts to give his platoons units orders in the same manner as CM does now. The only real difference is that the menus are a reflection of the present SOP the platoon is under. Since they are under Contact SOP

Contact

a. Move to Contact

b. Sneak

c. Target

d. Rotate

e. Covered arc

f. Split squad

g. Hide

He gives most squads Move to Contact orders that are within the general direction of the waypoint up the road. He splits one squad, gives the 2xLMG portion of that squad a Target (unlike the StuGs, he can see part of the farm) for Area fire. Since his commands are all within the waypoint criteria and not excessively complicated or numerous or into regions out oh his LOS, they have minimal to no delays. On the order of seconds at most. When the platoon HQ selects himself for orders, he sees that there is an ADVANCE order present in the menu. This is randomly generated to reflect the initiative and experience that certain units have. Sometimes orders can also be absent. He decides that he needs to use this order and commands himself down the road with a Move to Contact followed by an Advance order .

[ October 31, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The StuG platoon is activated and again just skips the platoon menu options and goes to issuing orders. His menu is Contact SOP driven but the commands are for vehicle units. He elects to fire smoke between the farm and the road that the platoons will be moving up according to plan. Since he is parralel to the road, longs and shorts will generate useful smoke. The other two Stugs are given Hunt commands so that they can bring the farm into LOS. The hunt orders are exactlty along the waypoint path and generate no delays.

The Bn HQ 'platoon' is selected and the FO is given a Move to Contact order so that he can see the farm and call arty down. The mortar HT also fires smoke as the StuG is ordered to do. This should give some cover to the troops. The Bn HQ does nothing and this further reduces any delays as he acts as a command center.