US Infantry Company 1:1

[DrD]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The Company HQ is actually larger than I thought. Its 2 Offs and 33 EM. While many are clerk, cook, potato-peelers, there are still many bodies that might be modeled for combat situations.

17 basic soldiers are listed. Are these all ammo carriers? Stretcher men?

13 men across the whole company are messengers.

Almost every HQ has alot of riflemen, look at the TO&E for a battallion and you will see an HQ section almost as big as a company.

Generally, each HQ tries to be as big as its subordinate units, so a battalion HQ is about as big as a company, a regimental HQ as big as a battalion, etc.

The main function of these men on paper was to provide local security for the HQ. Practically speaking, however, their primary role was as a reserve. HQ troops could be fed into subordinate units as needed or used to create an ad-hoc unit.

I'm not sure what's so puzzling about HQ troops in CMx2, if one wants to simulate the cooks fighting in the bulge just make them green squads. All troops were trained as riflemen, and do not need to be portrayed in the game any differently.

Now, why all this obsession with TO&E's anyway? Don't you know they're useless? A combat unit spent the vast majority of its service below strength. It was not uncommon for companies to have 20 men and be led by a sergeant. Moreover, "cross-attachments" were very common, with other units joined and mixed on a temporary or permanent basis. Do you really think when an officer needed to send a message in battle he said "hey, are you a messenger? no? Oh well, I'll go and find one." Or when he was under attack would he say "too bad you're a messenger, otherwise I'd put you and your M1 in that foxhole there."

Soldiers usually laughed at their "jobs." They all had the same job: rifleman.

For example, on paper, the 506th para (Band of Brothers) was not an organic part of the 101st Airborne, but was attached to it for the duration. The TO&E of the 101st only shows a glider regiment and one para regiment (I think the 502nd).

Also, more tanks were found in independent regiments than in armoured divisions. These regiments were either attached to infantry divisions or smaller infantry units, in which case they were a regimental combat team.

Finally, units often traded equipment or even bartered for stuff they thought they needed. Where is the tommy gun in the TO&E? I think only the squad leader has one, but in real life it was not uncommon for 2 or 3 men to have one.

A friend of mine was an artilleryman in Vietnam, and his battery traded their AA MG for another jeep. He had to find another MG before he turned his battery over to its next CO.

So a TO&E is useless in CMx2, except perhaps as a guide to what your batallion should NOT look like!

So stop obsessing over the number of cooks and boot-polishers in a unit! It just doesn't matter,except for interest on its own rather than as a guide to how to make CMx2.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

There is also the question of how badly do we really want/need to simulate cooks and clerks. I'd say not at all. I can't recall any instances of company cooks in CW accounts being anywhere near the shooting, though I don't doubt it may have happened on occasion. I suspect their own SOP would be to head for the hills?

Plus, can't scenario designers create provisional "cooks and buglers" platoons just by sticking in some low ammo Green squads in the odd scenario where they would be needed? Going off of my CMx1 knowledge, I personally would hate to have to delete the Medical and Signals elements (for example) of every Rifle Company I selected for purchase, which I would do in 99% of purchases I should think.

-dale

[dalem]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

... Bazookas ... For the most part these AT type weapons were not assigned to specific men but rather made available to formations as an extra tool for their tool chest.

Any thought towards handling Bazookas and PIATs (et al) similarly to the way rifle-grenades and panzerfausts are now - i.e. not as a particular unit, but as a section/squad weapon, with a certain number of rounds, that may or may not be there, and can be adjusted for by a scen designer?

Jon </font>

[JonS]

Both then? Indiv "tank hunter teams", and organic "special wpns".

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

... Bazookas ... For the most part these AT type weapons were not assigned to specific men but rather made available to formations as an extra tool for their tool chest.

Any thought towards handling Bazookas and PIATs (et al) similarly to the way rifle-grenades and panzerfausts are now - i.e. not as a particular unit, but as a section/squad weapon, with a certain number of rounds, that may or may not be there, and can be adjusted for by a scen designer?

Jon </font>

[Wartgamer]

I think the value of the TOE is in showing how to implement the 1:1 nature better than the current 'unit' abstraction. The new C&C model should also see how things are laid out and who is where. Communications, Ranks, etc.

Take the case of the US Heavy Weapons Company mortars. Each 2xmortar section is almost a small platoon. It has a 2ndLT, 3 NCOs, and actually 18 people total. Since the designer has said that ammo resupply can be modeled, and many men in the org are ammo carriers, its the obvious thing to look at the TOE and use that for the game.

Going to 1:1 but then leaving out certain soldiers makes one wonder if its worth it at all. In a line company that was under a heavy assault attack, no one is cooking a hot lunch. If need be, they can help the command post to defend itself or cover the evacuation.

Getting down to the detail of 1:1 and not modeling something like a command post makes me wonder what anyone thinks a US front line command was like. Its even more crucial for a Battalion Commander to have a Command Post to fight his battalion.

[Battlefront.com]

Wartgamer, IIRC in practice many US units substituted the .30cal with .50 cal. This was done in the typical American way... "requsition by other means" We never did figure out how extensive this was, but as the war went on in the ETO (at least the Western ETO) it would appear that the water cooled .30s became less and less common.

Jon, as was stated a long time ago in one of the 1:1 threads weapons are assigned to individuals since there are no individuals to assign them to. This means a PIAT, Bazooka, or the like can be handled as a subset of the squad's firepower instead of having to be unrealistically tasked to fictional manpower. How exactly this will be done is not something I care to comment on, but keep in mind that the inherent divorce from the generic unit system of CMx1 gives us all sorts of possibilities to play around with. As I said from the beginning... 1:1 is not about eye candy

I can't remember battlefield leadership replacement in WWII, but in the current US military I'm pretty sure it works like this:

Company CO is taken out, Company XO steps in until the HW Platoon CO can assume command of the Company. The XO, normally, does not retain control of the formation in the interests of shuffling around as few poeple as possible. This would be the short term solution. As soon as practical an exprienced staff officer would be found at Battalion or higher level and would step in to replace the fallen CO, with the HW Platoon CO returning to his unit. Again, an attempt to disrupt the unit cohesion as little as possible. Obviously this is all subject to circumstances and in an environment where officers are picked off left and right (as was the case in WWII) alternatives were likely used as often as the theoretical plan. Heck, I'd even bet that whatever the regs said happened LESS frequently than then other field expediants.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

Reposting this as it was editted

The Company HQ may actually be broken up into three groups.

1. One is the actual CO, Senior NCO and runners/commo(mobile wireless). It may be 4-6 people actually.

2. The other main group is the XO led group who represent the actual static HQ position. The nerve center setup.

3. The remaining group is the Cook NCO and Cooks plus Armorer/Ammo people and all assorted pots/pans/ammo-dump/spare parts plus vehicle park. This is typically further back but not always off map given the size of the maps.

CMX1 ignores actual 'Headquarters' (the place) in that the physical location of this actual frontline unit's location is NOT the same as the Company/Battalion HQ units that are dipicted. The CO could be in the Headquarters 'billet' (bunker typically) or he could be out and about. In his absense, the XO (top LT.) is running the show.

The static HQ position is the placement of much of the commo in that landline wire communications from Battalion and above connect to this spot. Large wireless radios are 'benched' here. Much of the tactical maps, photos are 'tabled' here.

Its a battlefield reality.

What is your source for all this? Your comments seem to be divorced from reality, actually. Would love to see where you get this stuff from.

You mention wireless radios, I was wondering if there was another kind?

Tactical maps and photos are "tabled" at a company headquarters?

[Wartgamer]

M2HB .50 Caliber Air Cooled Machine Gun

Operation Selective Fire; Semiautomatic or Fully Automatic, recoil operated, air cooled

Caliber .50 (12.7 mm)

Ammunition bullet 710 gr, charge 235 gr

Muzzle velocity 853.4 mps (2930 fps)

Capacity 110-round metallic link belt

Weight 57.8 kg (128 lbs); barrel 81 lbs, tripod 44 lbs

In any leg unit, you could not hump this thing. It would need a weapons carrier. Also its ammo is heavy and I think its about half the rounds for the same weight as 30 cal. So thats twice the trips for the same number of rounds.

[Wartgamer]

I would love to see how long a Canadian Company HQ would last squatting in a shellhole. CW must act like big platoons instead of companies.

[aka_tom_w]

Yeah but....

From a strictly "game playing" point of view this is interesting point because we who have played the Allies in the first three versions of CM have become acustomed to having soldier HMG teams carry (hump) that heavy Ma Duce around the battlefield.

SURE they move slow, but that team will carry that thing and set it up where you want and lay down fire in CM. I thought it had a team of 6 and they carried it where ever you wanted. At least in Combat Mission THE GAME anyway.

for what its worth...

-tom w

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

M2HB .50 Caliber Air Cooled Machine Gun

Operation Selective Fire; Semiautomatic or Fully Automatic, recoil operated, air cooled

Caliber .50 (12.7 mm)

Ammunition bullet 710 gr, charge 235 gr

Muzzle velocity 853.4 mps (2930 fps)

Capacity 110-round metallic link belt

Weight 57.8 kg (128 lbs); barrel 81 lbs, tripod 44 lbs

In any leg unit, you could not hump this thing. It would need a weapons carrier. Also its ammo is heavy and I think its about half the rounds for the same weight as 30 cal. So thats twice the trips for the same number of rounds.

[gibsonm]

Seems a fairly palatial Coy HQ to me.

When I was an OC (armoured Squadron as opposed to an infantry Company) I had my battle map covered in contact in my tanksuit pocket, which I used to command the vehicle and the Sqn whilst on the move, and a briefing map mounted on a 60cm x 30cm piece of plywood and covered with clear plastic so the Tp Ldrs (Lieutenants and one Sgt) could get a neat trace to copy off.

This map was stowed in the vehicle when not needed.

My Infantry colleagues (Company Commanders) carried their maps in their webbing and their “tent” was a rolled up “shelter individual” (sheet of plastic) stuffed somewhere else in their gear.

In a Company defensive position, the OC’s pit was a little larger than average but it still only held 3 people (OC, FO, Sig). The 2IC (or XO if you prefer) was in a another pit nearby. The senior non com (CSM or Top Sgt) was often off the position chasing rations, ammo, etc. There was no dedicated Company CP.

At Bn level a CP is dug and that’s where maps tend to go up on walls, etc but it also is home for the BC of the DS Bty, the Mor Pl commander and other assets that the CO has access to)

Perhaps in a long term defensive position you could “scrounge” this stuff but I suspect when advancing you would be very unlikely to see it.

Admittendly, this is now but I suspect it was little different in 1939 - 1945

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

M2HB .50 Caliber Air Cooled Machine Gun

snip...

In any leg unit, you could not hump this thing. It would need a weapons carrier. Also its ammo is heavy and I think its about half the rounds for the same weight as 30 cal. So thats twice the trips for the same number of rounds.

Actually one box of 0.50” (100 rounds) weighs more than two boxes of 0.30” (each of which is 250 rounds) so:

100 rounds of 0.50” weighs more than 500 rounds of 0.30”.

[Wartgamer]

An example of scrounged people..

DAYLIGHT DEFENSE OF A BN CP IN AN ATTACK

All personnel not engaged and not included in sketch below report to S-1 at the Rallying point and constitute the mobile reserve. Proper distribution of the Commanders, rock at M1 must be effected.

1. S Sgt Com Chief - C

2. Clk, Ng - R

3. S Sgt, Sgt. Maj. - C

4. Cpl. Gas. - R.

5. S Sgt, Opns - C

6. Odly - C

7. Sgt. Rad & Vis chief - R

7,9,10,Tec.4 (l),2 Pvts,Oprs Rad. –R.

11,12,13.-1Tec 5,2 Pvts drivers R.M.1903.

14. Mrch, Mts. R.M1903.

15. Sgt, Mtr - R.

16. Opr, Sr. - R

17., 18. Pvts, Msgrs. - C

19. Sgt. Maj .com chief - R

20. Tec .5, Opr Rad. -R

[Wartgamer]

A Battalion Command fights its way forward by moving its Command Post to the next site. Its a leapfrog affair and the reserve Company of the battalion is typically where they want to move to.

Modern day warriors (and weak-end warriors) are somewhat spoiled by all the wireless they have now. Laying wire for telephones and maintaining tube radios (which were bigger/bulkier and energy hogs) is a forgotten chore.

[Wartgamer]

http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/images/ww2/infantry_rifle_org.gif

another TOE perhaps earlier

This shows that each company had two jeeps with trailers. So its ammo resupply for the 60mm (bulky heavy) could be kept up as well as many other items.

[ March 14, 2005, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

...My Infantry colleagues (Company Commanders) carried their maps in their webbing and their “tent” was a rolled up “shelter individual” (sheet of plastic) stuffed somewhere else in their gear.

In a Company defensive position, the OC’s pit was a little larger than average but it still only held 3 people (OC, FO, Sig). The 2IC (or XO if you prefer) was in a another pit nearby. The senior non com (CSM or Top Sgt) was often off the position chasing rations, ammo, etc. There was no dedicated Company CP...

Admittendly, this is now but I suspect it was little different in 1939 - 1945

Sounds exactly like the infantry company headquarters I have served in once or twice in recent years. Moreover, matches the descriptions I've read in personal accounts of the period.

[Wartgamer]

Canadian WWII Command Post example

This website shows how to construct a WWII Canadian Company Command Post (Northern Europe). Since Dorosh has authored many of these, it may be also his webpage.

[Battlefront.com]

In any leg unit, you could not hump this thing. It would need a weapons carrier. Also its ammo is heavy and I think its about half the rounds for the same weight as 30 cal. So thats twice the trips for the same number of rounds.

US Army "leg units" had access, official and unofficial, to motorized transport in ways that most other armies did not. Heck, some infantry units even managed to "requisition" entire tank platoons for themselves!

I honestly don't think the water cooled .30cal unit had all that much of an easier time moving their crap than a .50cal unit would. However, the .30cal unit certainly would be able to carry more ammo man for man, trip for trip.

Steve

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

A Battalion Command fights its way forward by moving its Command Post to the next site. Its a leapfrog affair and the reserve Company of the battalion is typically where they want to move to.

It would make life easier and reduce confusion if you were a little more consistent with your terminology and examples.

This post and the one before it mentions Bn operations whilst you are using them to explain Coy operations which is a lower level and a much leaner organisation (e.g. Defence of a Bn CP during an attack and how a CO fights his Bn).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

http://www.girlguides.ca/default.asp (Canadian WWII Command Post example)

This website shows how to construct a WWII Canadian Company Command Post (Northern Europe). Since Dorosh has authored many of these, it may be also his webpage.

**** you.

I think maybe you've finally revealed your true understanding of this subject.

[Wartgamer]

Canadian ID tags?

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:

A Battalion Command fights its way forward by moving its Command Post to the next site. Its a leapfrog affair and the reserve Company of the battalion is typically where they want to move to.

It would make life easier and reduce confusion if you were a little more consistent with your terminology and examples.

This post and the one before it mentions Bn operations whilst you are using them to explain Coy operations which is a lower level and a much leaner organisation (e.g. Defence of a Bn CP during an attack and how a CO fights his Bn). </font>

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In any leg unit, you could not hump this thing. It would need a weapons carrier. Also its ammo is heavy and I think its about half the rounds for the same weight as 30 cal. So thats twice the trips for the same number of rounds.

US Army "leg units" had access, official and unofficial, to motorized transport in ways that most other armies did not. Heck, some infantry units even managed to "requisition" entire tank platoons for themselves!

I honestly don't think the water cooled .30cal unit had all that much of an easier time moving their crap than a .50cal unit would. However, the .30cal unit certainly would be able to carry more ammo man for man, trip for trip.

Steve </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Jon, as was stated a long time ago in one of the 1:1 threads weapons are assigned to individuals since there are no individuals to assign them to.

Sorry - I don't understand what you mean here.

This means a PIAT, Bazooka, or the like can be handled as a subset of the squad's firepower instead of having to be unrealistically tasked to fictional manpower.

I think I like this though - if it means 'it' (where 'it' = PIAT, Bazooka, etc) can be used by anyone and everyone within the section. Presumably with some chance of damage/loss in the way that, for example, section LMGs are in CMx1.

As I said from the beginning... 1:1 is not about eye candy

I'm fairly sure I never expressed that opinion - I was the one banging on about stars, remember Besides, the same effect could be acheived without graphical 1:1

Changing topic:

I can't remember battlefield leadership replacement in WWII, but in the current US military ... [snips]

Presumably in the CM context in doesn't matter how long the next in the food chain could be expected to hold the position because at a minimum it would be longer than a CM battle. Ops, or whatever they're called now, might be another matter.

BTW, are you aware that in the case of the CW the FOO is generally the next batsman at the coy, while the BC is next at Bn? Situation dependant, of course, but the thinking is that the FOO/BC is the best informed of the infantry commanders intentions and plans because the FOO/BC is responsible for tee-ing up the firesupport for that plan. The infantry 2iC would take over at the next convienient time (overnight, after the objective is secure, sumfink like that).

Erm, hopefully redundant, but ... remember that the US and the CW had quite, quite different approaches to FOs and FOing.

Jon