US Infantry Company 1:1

[RMC]

Wasn't the standard jeep trailer a half-tonner? The Jeep was a quarter ton vehicle so together 1500lbs total capacity. That means 1164lbs is not overloading the pair, but then you tend to cube out before you weigh out.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

dalem - I got your setup this morning, will try and return it by Friday night. I am doing Army stuff Wed and Thu evening after work. Gotta pay them bills, don't you know.

Excellent. Thanks! And thanks JonS for the scenario.

-dale

[tar]

So, will it be harder to reverse your jeep if it has a trailer attached to it? That always struck me as a weakness in the modeling of the Crocodile tanks -- they didn't seem all that hindered in mobility (forward and especially reverse) by the presence of the trailer...

I also presume that either the runners will have to function in 1:1 mode or else they will be abstracted away and thus dropped from the actual on-map forces. It wouldn't do to "double count" them, but I'm confident BFC has already thought about this....

[Battlefront.com]

Dorosh is correct about official TO&E. It is great to have as a reference, but man... that's about as far as it can be taken. Anybody that looks at this info as literal truth is absolutely going about things the wrong way. Here is a general rule of thumb...

When trying to figure out the actual TO&E for a given period look up and find the one that was supposedly in use and the one that came after it. Think of the time inbetween as a progressive timeline. Plot the current date on that timeline, and then do the math to see what % you are along on that timeline. The changes between the two TO&Es are (rule of thumb!) most likely related to this number. Say for example that a tank platoon went from 5 tanks down to 4. If you are 80% towards the later TO&E then there is a roughly 80% chance that the unit has already adopted a 4 tank sized force. Again, very rough and generally only useful to get an idea of how inaccurate TO&Es are.

When looking at official TO&E we did as much research as possible to see how the REAL formations matched up to the theoretical. Some nations, like UK and US, were at least in the same ballpark most of the time. Other nations, like Hungary and Romania, weren't even removely close matches to their theoretical TO&E. Germans were all over the place depending on type of force, front, and year. Soviets were not all that bad either, though like the Germans they had a ton of overlapping formations!

Anyhoo... a lot of time was spent researching the TO&Es in CMx1. A lot! And even then it is only a fair guess. A far better guess than any other game, and perhaps even somewhat better than the research materials used to create it, but it is not accurate. CMx2 will allow more flexibility with TO&E and therefore should be more accurate. We'll just have to see though

Steve

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:

I think that anyone that has followed this thread knows that weapons company trailer/jeep info is useful (especially the 50 cal and bazooka).

More faulty conclusions on your part, I am guessing. So the weapons company had a .50 on their official TOE. Doesn't mean

a) it was used

it was used in a ground (ie non-AA) role

c) it was even carried

d) it wasn't deleted a month after the orders were published

I would be more interested in reading good company/battalion accounts of what they actually did with the weapons they had as opposed to reading loading lists.

And your comments about what an overwhelming load this represented for a jeep trailer once again point out that you don't have the ability to interpret what you are reading. **shrugs** I see Steve stopped responding to you pages ago, so keep blabbing, I guess.

dalem - I got your setup this morning, will try and return it by Friday night. I am doing Army stuff Wed and Thu evening after work. Gotta pay them bills, don't you know. </font>

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by tar:

So, will it be harder to reverse your jeep if it has a trailer attached to it? That always struck me as a weakness in the modeling of the Crocodile tanks -- they didn't seem all that hindered in mobility (forward and especially reverse) by the presence of the trailer...

I also presume that either the runners will have to function in 1:1 mode or else they will be abstracted away and thus dropped from the actual on-map forces. It wouldn't do to "double count" them, but I'm confident BFC has already thought about this....

Driving a vehicle in reverse with a trailer is a pain. Its also a skill that many people, who have driven vehicles, lack and needs to be learned.

Runners should not be dropped if the unit has other commo capability. In the US case, in a defense setting, the use of land line wire would be primary, followed by radio (if it was allowed), then a runner.

Front line commanders would not send all runners at once. Once one comes back, with a reply, then another might be sent back.

Keeping every swingin' d**k in the line helps.

And TO&E, while many would argue are not 100% correct (and no one was arguing that they were), are a godd starting point for any game. Many units arrived in Normandy very close to the strength/org shown. It would adapt to battle and battle would adapt it (loses).

Major weapons sytems numbers are certainly known and in many cases the number of troops strengths are also known.

[ March 16, 2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

First Lieutenant HAROLD C. BISHOP, 168th Infantry.

"Battalion and company CPs, in stable defensive positions, can and

should be set up in businesslike style, even if they are underground.

Adequate files should be set up for the abundance of intelligence and

operational material, such as patrol reports, overlays of friendly and

enemy dispositions, counterbattery and counterattack plans, etc. Filing

systems must be set up immediately, or valuable material will be lost."

i. CP-OP Operations. The CP is the center of all operations and the OP

is a business establishment for the purpose of observing and destroying the

enemy. Established observation posts should not be subjected to the

carelessness of commanders and their staffs.

[Wartgamer]

Perhaps some insight into those 'Basics' that are listed in TO&E...

a. Replacement Procedure.

Lieutenant Colonel HAROLD L. STIPP, Headquarters 34th Infantry Division.

"Just prior to the start of the offensive to break out of the ANZIO

Beachhead an overstrength of 150 officers and 750 enlisted men was

assigned to the Division in anticipation of future losses. The purpose

was to determine whether this would facilitate rapid replacement of battle

losses and to determine whether such a method of replacement would be more

effective rather than receipt of small shipments of green recruits, with

the resulting immediate utilization in combat units. The 750 enlisted men

were assigned equally to each infantry regiment with instructions that

they be placed mainly in rifle companies to insure battle indoctrination

during the defensive phase, and just prior to the opening of the

offensive, instructions were issued to each regimental commander to form a

replacement company. These replacement companies consisting of

approximately 250 men were withdrawn to regiment rear echelons, to be held

in readiness for immediate replacement of battle losses. When battle

losses occurred, the regimental commander then drew upon his replacements,

always maintaining the fighting strength of his regiment at or very near

the authorized table of organization strength.

The extra officers, consisting of about 40 per infantry regiment,

were not a part of the replacement company but were assigned to companies

and actually utilized with the companies in combat. Thirty additional

officers, including 20 artillerymen, were assigned on the basis of 5 for a

battalion, the other 10 being utilized in service elements of the Command

where the need had become evident. The number of additional officers

assigned to rifle companies should be 2 as a minimum with 3 preferred.

This system of employing the individual in actual combat for a short

period where the type of action permits and then with-drawing him to the

regimental rear echelons for utilization as loss replacements, proved

extremely satisfactory and seemed to be an important advance in

replacement procedure.

First, it is an invaluable aid in the training of replacements in

that it provides training and conditioning in the presence of battle

itself, common to the conditions in which they will fight.

Secondly, it provides for small reserves to maintain combat strength

and efficiency for several days after initiation of the attack, when it is

most necessary to maintain drive and momentum.

Throughout the ANZIO Beachhead break-through and continuation of the

advance to PISA, additional replacements were obtained in groups of 150 to

200 and sub-allocated to regiments, maintaining in each an over-strength

of 250. It is true that in an extremely rapid advance it is more

difficult to maintain replacement companies as such and one or two minor

break-downs occurred in the procedure.

Through experience gained in fighting and the planning of operation

of replacement companies, it is considered that a unit of a total strength

of 750 enlisted men, infantry, attached to the Division, is the better

plan for providing the necessary overhead personnel; administration and

maintenance equipment can be made available to the Division Commander.

Present T/E allowances do not permit the operation and maintenance of so

large a group as a separate unit. Officer personnel for training

administration can be obtained from surplus assigned officers, if the

practice of a surplus is to be maintained. Within this attached unit

there should be 3 replacement companies - one allocated to each regiment.

This provides the regimental commander with an opportunity to rotate men

in a state of near exhaustion, replacing them with fresh men with a

minimum amount of administrative details. It provides an opportunity to

train replacement groups in those subjects which are considered most

necessary for the regiment at the time; however, the unit remaining under

the Division Commander's control. It also provides an opportunity for the

men to become acquainted with the regiment in which they will ultimately

serve."

[Battlefront.com]

Gibson,

I'm just reading an article about 1 Bde and the Al Mathanna Task Group (AMTG) in Iraq. Looks like some of your Rece compadres are driving around looking for the best spot to put the Brigade Rugby Pitch The article wasn't as entertaining as my favorite bit of Army - The Soldier's Newspaper, "Say Again, Over", but a statisfying read none-the-less Can't remember what Digger put me on the mailing list, but a hearty "thank you" to whoever it was!

Now... back to the topic at hand... whatever the heck that is...

Steve

[gibsonm]

Sounds like a Mission Essential task to me

Much better than some guy detonating the family car as you drive past.

[Wartgamer]

How about a comment on the role/inclusion of OP and CP in a tactical wargame featuring companies and battalions?

I suppose it really depends on the C&C abstraction that will be implemented.

[Battlefront.com]

Much better than some guy detonating the family car as you drive past.

Yup! Well, best wishes to the new rotation. At least they should be deployed with the latest personal gear like what was sent over last November. Love the Desert Bunny suits!

Wartgamer.

I suppose it really depends on the C&C abstraction that will be implemented

Yes, it does Short answer, and the only one I will give, is that no detailed C&C system would be complete without C&C equipment being independent of soldiers. Since we're aware of that fact, and are doing a detailed C&C system... you figure it out

Steve

[Wartgamer]

Page about Jeep trailers

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by RMC:

Wasn't the standard jeep trailer a half-tonner? The Jeep was a quarter ton vehicle so together 1500lbs total capacity. That means 1164lbs is not overloading the pair, but then you tend to cube out before you weigh out.

I believe the jeep was 600 pounds capacity. The trailer is 500 pounds capacity. And the cube space on a jeep is quite small.

[ March 16, 2005, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Yes, it does Short answer, and the only one I will give, is that no detailed C&C system would be complete without C&C equipment being independent of soldiers. Since we're aware of that fact, and are doing a detailed C&C system... you figure it out

I figure that means communications equipment and messengers are modeled. But messengers are dependant on soldiers. But I think I get the point, and that is, you still ain't giving up bones on C&C yet.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

Who's begging for attention now?

[Wartgamer]

Maybe I'm suffering from a confusion of scale here. I've always assumed that when I have a company HQ in play, i.e. I'm running the whole company, the 8 guys in the Company HQ "squad" are the bare bones of what needs to be forward directing the battle, and the support elements (buglers and drivers) are even further to the rear.

-dale

A company will generally have 2 platoons forward, one platoon back (generally occupying a OP position), Heavy weapons platoon deployed as needed, and a Company CP.

Platoons are certainly 1:1 represented. The company HQ unit is really 'based' at the CP most of the time. When the CO has left the CP, he usually does it in a 4 man group (or so). If he is just going back to Battalion HQ, he may just take 1-2 men with him.

But the CP is manned 24 hours a day and it represents quite a few 1:1 soldiers that should be modeled.

The other people like clerks, cooks, etc are typically further back and in some armies even back at Battalion (they only join the company when the company is detached). But in certain circumstances, they are certainly to be viewed as 'reserves' and if it comes to it, they will man a weapon.

The Company Command Post is wired directly to the Battalion CP. Its where the intel/orders get exchanged. The wireless (SCR300 'backpack' and SCR536 'handietalkies') are additional communications. Platoon control and communication with other non-wired assets/commands are possible.

[ March 16, 2005, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:

Who's begging for attention now? </font>

Trying to initiate a discussion about C&C. No one is trying to steal your boyfriend Dorosh.

[Gpig]

jeez you two. Give it rest, please.

Gpig

[Tero]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

CMx2 will allow more flexibility with TO&E and therefore should be more accurate.

Will there be provisions to have rare/unusual pieces of equipment in the TOE which are not perhaps modelled in the game engine as such (like Komsomolets arty tractors, hand carts, wheel barrows, mules and horsies ) ?

[dalem]

So if I'm A Company attacking a village or something, and my formation looks like this:

-------> 1st platoon

-------------------------------> 3rd platoon

-------------------------> Company HQ

-------------------> 2d platoon

Say there's 200m between each platoon, the HQ is right near 2d platoon.

That Company HQ is supposed to be chock full of typists and clerks and 2 or 3 jeeps every time?

-dale

[gibsonm]

Dalem,

Normally you have 3 choices:

1 up (meant to look like a triangle point uppermost moving towards the enemy):

------------ENEMY

----------- Platoon

------------ CHQ

-----Platoon-------Platoon

2 up (meant to look like a triangle (base uppermost moving towards the enemy):

------------ENEMY

-----Platoon-------Platoon

------------ CHQ

----------- Platoon

or 3 up (rare):

-------------------ENEMY

-----Platoon------- Platoon------- Platoon

------------------- CHQ

The composition of CHQ is what is being “discussed”.

Definitely in UK / CW organisations this is a pretty small group with support section working with a platoon and clerks, cooks etc. in HQ or Admin Coy well to the rear as part of the Bn’s echelon.

For the US it is being argued that it is a larger grouping but I’m assuming the US CHQ’s in the above diagrams are a “Tac” HQ (similar in size to the UK / CW group) and CHQ “Main” if you like to the rear with all the cooks etc.

I gather a US Bn doesn’t have an Admin or HQ Coy for these people (please don’t post a multi paragraph TO&E, a simple “yes“ or “no“ is fine for my needs)?

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by RMC:

Wasn't the standard jeep trailer a half-tonner? The Jeep was a quarter ton vehicle so together 1500lbs total capacity. That means 1164lbs is not overloading the pair, but then you tend to cube out before you weigh out.

Standard Jeep trailer was a quarter ton capacity.

[RMC]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

For the US it is being argued that it is a larger grouping but I’m assuming the US CHQ’s in the above diagrams are a “Tac” HQ (similar in size to the UK / CW group) and CHQ “Main” if you like to the rear with all the cooks etc.

I've never seen a company have split CPs. In modern US doctrine you see that at brigade and higher. In the defense the company does establish a CP. In the attack, the CP is where the commander is.

We're actually throwing terms around loosely here. The CP is a a facility of some sort; a foxhole, tent, bunker, what have you. We should be talking about the Command Group not CPs. The command group is small and not the horde of people listed in that MTO&E.

I gather a US Bn doesn’t have an Admin or HQ Coy for these people (please don’t post a multi paragraph TO&E, a simple “yes“ or “no“ is fine for my needs)?

Modern US battalions have an HHC, Headquarters and Headquarters Company. It includes the battalion staff, motorpool, and the specialty platoons: scout, mortar, anti-tank, support and the aid station. Not sure about WWII, but it was probably similar.

[Wartgamer]

The jeeps were actually part of the heavy weapons platoon and the drivers are listed under the TO&E for this platoon.

The main function of the jeeps are supply for the weapons when fighting, and transport during moves. Even if they have 50 cals, they are not to be used as a weapon system. AA defense being its main 'shooting' role. Self defense being its actual shooting role typically.

'Basics' in the TO&E are more than likely troops getting some front line experience under one of the Company HQ's NCOs.

IRL, many US companies got worn down and fresh meat was fed into the front line squads. This led to many new-guys getting killed as a matter of course. The loss of 200-300 troops a day was typical for many US Army divisions fighting in Normandy. These units may not get back to anything like the listed TO&E till they were pulled off the line and had a chance to develop a NCO/Officer structure and take on new non-coms.