Using tanks to demolish buildings in CMX2 ?

[noob]

I was reading an account of the battle of Arnhem bridge and it mentioned the Germans using Tigers to knock down some of the buildings the Brits were using by ramming into them.

Will CMX2 be able to simulate this ?

[aka_tom_w]

that would be nice

but if they do that then they ALSO need to let tanks CRASH into buildings and fall through the floor and end up nose down STUCK in the basement.

Ted Posted this sometime ago

(I still think it is FUNNY! Sad but True funny but entertaining none the less)

comment on Squad Leader rules:

Oh those rules….

I remember playing with my brother and on many occasions I'd stop play and declare a rule.

My brother would groan and say “Oh no, not another one of Teddy’s Obscure Rule Numbers” and knew he was in trouble.

Now it’s been a long time, but I seem to remember rolling a low Dice roll and hitting one of his fast moving tanks then rolling a number one higher than the maximum to kill number (say a 7 instead of a needed 6 or less).

My brother, who couldn’t believe I hit him in the first place, was pleased and went to continue his turn when I said “Wait” and went to the “Book”. (Brother groaned).

Well it turned out that one number greater than the kill was a possible Shock.

-Roll the dice- and sure enough he failed and was shocked (Brother groaned).

Now, when an AFV while on the move gets Shocked it must finish its move traveling in a random direction dictated by a die roll (Brother groaned).

He travels down an open road drifting towards the only house in sight and, sure enough crashes into it (Brother groaned).

Dice role to see if he immobilizes, he makes it. (Brother relieved).

“Wait” I say and open book (Brother groaned).

“Obscure Rule Number One Twenty Two C”….

A roll of the dice later and his AFV “crashes into the basement” and is removed from play (Brother quit).

So, my two cents:

-AFV’s in CM can’t crash into wooden houses, fall into a basement and disappear.

-In CM it doesn’t take 4 “dice” rolls and 4 “die” rolls just to move one tank.

he he he

-tom w

[noob]

but if they do that then they ALSO need to let tanks CRASH into buildings and fall through the floor and end up nose down STUCK in the basement

Not necassarily, they could just give the chance of immobilisation to any tank that crashes into a building, and make it possible only with a fast move order and buttoned so it cannot get "shocked"

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by noob:

I was reading an account of the battle of Arnhem bridge and it mentioned the Germans using Tigers to knock down some of the buildings the Brits were using by ramming into them.

Will CMX2 be able to simulate this ?

Are you sure? This sounds very risky for any tank - falling in to a cellar only being one issue. Damage to optics and fittings outside the tank, the risk of immobilsation, the difficulty in doing it with a gun like the 88 (have to keep the turret pointed out of the way - you don't want to throw the sights off, or damage the recoil gear by giving the gun a whack). Also, if the building or one near by is even slightly likely to have a man with a AT weapon of any sort, it could quite spoil your day.

The only sensible way to knock down buildings with a tank (with the exception of lightly built, unoccupied ones without a cellar) is to stand off a couple of hundred yards, and put HE into it systematically until it collapses. I have read that the Ge did that at Arnhem. (And elsewhere)

[YankeeDog]

Big difference between "immobilized" and "crashed into basement."

At tank that smashed into a building would indeed probably stand a good chance of getting stuck in the rubble and immobilized (big structural timber in the running gear, whatever), but it would still be able to fight from a stationary position. Gun damage is also a distinct possiblity -- either debris in the barrel, or if something heavy falls on top of the barrel, it could knock the barrel out of alignment with the sights, or even possibly completely off its trunions.

But A tank that actually crashed into the basement would almost certainly be totally hors de combat. There's even a chance the turret would fall right off the hull -- on most tank designs, nothing holds the turret onto the hull other than gravity, and if the tank pitches over too far, the turret can actually fall out of the hull.

Cheers,

YD

[Sergei]

I don't think that a tank stuck WITHIN a building could do any combat, as its vision would be very effectively blocked and all the debris would limit turret traverse. If I were the commander, I'd order my men out.

And I really don't think that crashing into a basement is likely. Most basements in wooden houses tend to be rather small rooms. Definately no anti-tank trenches.

[painfbat]

I remember i've seen pictures showing a Tiger destroying a house. It did happen, the houses were small stone houses were the "working" man was living. No basement, thin walls, easy to destroy. Many cities in Holland still have those houses.

Cheers

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by noob:

but if they do that then they ALSO need to let tanks CRASH into buildings and fall through the floor and end up nose down STUCK in the basement

Not necassarily, they could just give the chance of immobilisation to any tank that crashes into a building, and make it possible only with a fast move order and buttoned so it cannot get "shocked"

If you are going to do it at all (generally a bad idea in terms of damage to the vehicle, optics, gunnery gear, etc.) then you do it SLOWLY.

Ramming a building at speed is a great way to get “shocked”. Think of the difference between hitting a wall in your car slowly or at speed. Doing this sort of stuff at speed is a great recipe to maximise any damage to the vehicle. If you do it slowly you can reverse out at the first signs of trouble, at speed it may be too late to react.

Use HE at range or whistle up the Engineers with a real bull dozer (they normally have nothing better to do ).

[noob]

As to the wisdom of house demolition by tanks thats another thing, i would just like the option to do it if i chose and accept the consequences.

However as far as i know it seems to be a rarely used tactic so im not going to cry if CMx2 doesnt simulate it, i just wanted to mention it.

[David Chapuis]

I saw a history channel show where the Germans did something similar to that at Bastogne. anybody know the details?

[gibsonm]

There is footage of a Tiger I ploughing through a free standing house, but:

a. Its trials footage (I think it was for Hitler’s birthday) so its more a propaganda stunt than a tactical drill.

b. The turret is traversed to approx 5 o’clock so it couldn’t really engage the occupants of the building (or nearby buildings).

[chiavarm]

I know when I served in Germany, Armed Forces Radio (TV) would have public service announcement showing M1A1’s accidentally clipping a house during exercises. This was just incidental contact, a tank cutting a corner. The building was in bad shape but the tank was unscathed. One thing I remember was a tank got fried when it tried to cross a rail road crossing with out tying down it radio antenna. The antenna hit the high voltage power line.

The announcement would end with, ”Remember we are guests in there country.”

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Sergei:

And I really don't think that crashing into a basement is likely. Most basements in wooden houses tend to be rather small rooms. Definately no anti-tank trenches.

Depends on where you are. For example, in many parts of Europe I've visited, even relatively simple, small houses often have rather deep, good-sized cellars for the storage of root vegetables, wine, etc. In the days before refrigeration was commonplace, this was actually a very important way of preserving food.

Back in my college days, I did the backpacking thing around Europe, frequently staying in private homes. Especially in smaller towns, most of the pre-war homes had fairly deep, good-sized cellars.

So in Northern Europe, my personal experience suggests good-sized cellars are fairly common in pre-war construction. But I'm not architectural historian, and elsewhere, it may be different.

Cheers,

YD

[Sergei]

Well, I live in Northern Europe (Finland), and I have been in many country houses built before refridgerators were common. Usually there was just a small pit (not much bigger than a deep foxhole) under the main building or nothing, but there was an outside basement, dug into the side of a hill. There could also be a root and milk storage in cowshed.

[Michael Emrys]

That would be less practical, you see, in any kind of built up area where the space available for building would be limited. In that case, one has to build vertically, down as well as up.

I realize this may be hard to visualize for one living in a country where most people are still living in tents made of reindeer hide.

Michael

[Sergei]

Hey, I was talking about country houses... but you're correct on the point about urban environs being different. So, the tank would fall into basement if it was a town map, but not if it was a rural map.

[Wartgamer]

A tank can do major damage to its traversing gear by just hitting a tree. The turret is traversed by a large ring gear and motor. You can either strip the ring gear or break the motor shaft/gear.

If you want to damage a house, just ram the corner with the gun pointed away. The removal of a load bearing part of the house will cause collapse.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Well, I live in Northern Europe (Finland), and I have been in many country houses built before refridgerators were common. Usually there was just a small pit (not much bigger than a deep foxhole) under the main building or nothing, but there was an outside basement, dug into the side of a hill. There could also be a root and milk storage in cowshed.

That doesn't surprise me at all in Finland, where keeping things cold is less of a problem.

My guess is that the warmer the climate, the deeper you have to dig to create a cool, constant temperature root cellar. In Italy, it seemed like every house we went in had a substantial cellar for cheeses, wine, etc. This was true of even modest establishments. Then again, the Italians do like their wine.

It is true, though, that the cellar didn't always encompass the entire footprint of the house. Nevertheless, they were big enough and deep enough that I would be very nervous trying to drive a 30-ton tank over the structure!

This isn't really my area of expertise, but as I understand it, foundation for the building is also an issue -- in any climate where the topsoil freezes & thaws on a yearly basis, you have to dig down far enough to get below the freeze/thaw layer. Otherwise, the expansion/contraction of the soil will gradually tear the building apart.

At least, I've been told that's why all buildings around where I grew up (Northern New England) are built with substantial basements -- to get the foundation down to stable bedrock. This may also be part of the reason why the basements aren't so extensive in Finland -- isn't the bedrock pretty close to the surface in most of Finland? IIRC, most of Finland also has a granitic bedrock, which would be a royal PITA to dig through. Softer soils and rocks in other parts of Europe probably make digging much easier.

Nowadays, they often just sink concrete sonotubes down to bedrock instead of digging a full basement, but I don't think they had this kind of construction technique pre-war.

Cheers,

YD

[Sergei]

to Wartgamer:

Depends on the house type. I think that wooden houses require a bit more of that sort of structural damage to totally collapse.

We need a demolitions grog...

[Wartgamer]

You do not need a total collapse. You want to flush out the occupants. Rushing the house, firing all MGs all along the way, blasting the house at nearly point blank range, and then taking out a corner of the house will certainly impress the occupants.

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

You do not need a total collapse. You want to flush out the occupants. Rushing the house, firing all MGs all along the way, blasting the house at nearly point blank range, and then taking out a corner of the house will certainly impress the occupants.

Yes - they will be so glad not to have to run out in to the open to use the ATG or PIAT/baz to kill you. The better way is several HE in to the ground floor, working along the wall. As a minimum the wall facing you will collapse, and with luck take half the floors above. You really do not want to go too close to a building you are not sure about in a tank!

Also people, an awful lot of buildings in European towns and cities (or even villages - look at France) were terraced (row houses in US speak if I remember my SL rules!). They are a bit harder to take out a corner. And if you do take out a corner, as often as not all you will get is a partial collapse of that corner, not the whole building. Not quite the same I know, but I have seen many bomb damaged buildings that have only partially collapsed (one wall etc). I think we have all been spoiled by the simple building models in CM1.

[V]

ON a related note, does anyone know if they plan to model basements in some buildings int he next version of CM?

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

A tank can do major damage to its traversing gear by just hitting a tree. The turret is traversed by a large ring gear and motor. You can either strip the ring gear or break the motor shaft/gear.

Close but I’m afraid no cigar.

Almost all turreted AFV’s (German, Soviet, US, UK and CW) have a “Turret Shear Pin” which is very similar in role to the shear pin in an outboard motor.

When you have a “barrel strike” the shear pin fails (on purpose) and prevents damage to the more complex and expensive hydraulics, motors, gears etc. Whilst the damage is less it is still a major PITA to line everything back up and replace the shear pin.

These are more important nowdays with vehicles moving cross country at speed on stab (where the turret changes position automatically, not through a concious decision of the gunner which he can warn the driver about) but they were still an important way to minimise damage to turret gear previously.

[Wartgamer]

Are you speaking about modern armor or WWII armor?

[flammenwerfer]

V

This is a quote from Steve-

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[QB] Flammenwerfer,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Speaking of pretty big abstractions, I was wondering if sewer movement will be addressed in the new build. Will the z-axis go beyond trenches, foxholes, craters...such as basements...?

Depends on the setting, but in theory all of this is possible. However, I think it is a very bad idea to get underground stuff, like sewers, simulated in detail unless the setting is pretty much all about that. It is a real bitch to pull off underground and above ground stuff from a user interface standpoint </font>