Role of Company H.Q.

[Jywansa]

Hi guys,

I’m wondering how the lines of command worked during WW2, in particular on company scale.

How did the platoons respond to the loss of the company HQ?

Did someone took over command to re-establish the chain of command with the battalion HQ, or did the platoons simply executed orders they received at the start of the battle?

Thanks in advance.

[Los]

If you are talking real life then the chain of command is ALWAYS reestablished. Certainly the sub-units are normally working to a prearranged plan but that doesn't eliminate the need for positive control at all times in every chain of command be it squad level up through Army level.

Los

[Michael Dorosh]

In actuality, company HQs rarely took part as actively in combat as they do in CM. The men in a company HQ would mainly have been signallers who were operating the radios/field phones rather than firing their weapons. They also probably got wiped out far less frequently in real life than in CM. Ordinarily it would not be unheard of for a "typical" company HQ not to even see the enemy, even when the platoons were engaged in stiff fighting.

[Dressler]

As a "for example" of sorts, look at how Lt. Dike was replaced as CO of Easy co. in the middle of the assault on Foy.

[JasonC]

Michael, while a company HQ might have a small staff that would not go forward, this was not the case for the CO himself and his command group, in either the US or the German armies anyway. They led from the front, and the captains or 1st lieus in charge of companies were in the thick of the fighting, routinely. Of battalion HQs, your comments could be accurate. In both the US and German armies, the company was the basic tactical unit, which would deploy or go on any mission as a body. Above that level cross attachments and tactical division of effort were common. Not below it.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Michael, while a company HQ might have a small staff that would not go forward, this was not the case for the CO himself and his command group, in either the US or the German armies anyway. They led from the front, and the captains or 1st lieus in charge of companies were in the thick of the fighting, routinely. Of battalion HQs, your comments could be accurate. In both the US and German armies, the company was the basic tactical unit, which would deploy or go on any mission as a body. Above that level cross attachments and tactical division of effort were common. Not below it.

Care to post a couple of examples?

[gunnergoz]

Michael-

I'm at work now and can't provide examples, but my reading (e.g. McDonald, "Company Commander") tends to bear Jason out. Company commanders had a pretty high fatality rate in WW2 and even Korea. They are considered the lowest level of command normally operating under direct fire. I'm sure that a "bad" CO could find ways to avoid exposure, but they wouldn't likely last too long if they did that, since the company commander was expected by BN/Rgt to produce results and that took a lot of hands-on. FWIW, see also the experience of Capt Winters of Band of Brothers fame, atypical in performance perhaps, but otherwise representative in the amount of exposure to combat that a company commander had to have. I don't think things have changed too much, either, even today...

[xerxes]

In the German army from my readings the company commander was fully expected to be on the scene. Leading by radio was unacceptable. Raus provide numerous examples and the expectation was quite clear.

[CMplayer]

Maybe you guys are both right. The company commander, first sergeant, a radioman and runner would be at the front (a tactical bound behind the lead platoon's HQ postion), while a bunch of other radio-types would be at another location farther back.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Care to post a couple of examples?

Currie at St Lambert sur Dives ... Mahoney at the River Melfa ... Jamieson at Grimbosq ...Triquet at Casa Berardi ... Ervine-Andrews at Dunkirk ...

[ January 27, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

Maybe you guys are both right. The company commander, first sergeant, a radioman and runner would be at the front (a tactical bound behind the lead platoon's HQ postion), while a bunch of other radio-types would be at another location farther back.

No, the first sergeant, company sergeant major or Hauptfeldwebel would rarely be found in the front lines. Their job was looking after prisoners, bringing forward ammo, and in between actions doing the administration necessary to running the company (leaves, paybook updates, casualty reports, supply requisitions, disciplinary matters, etc.)

I didn't mean to say company commanders didn't lead their men - though I think this may have been more prevalent in the German Army, given the paucity of officers in a rifle company - I meant to suggest that they weren't always in there blazing away with their machine pistols, as is usually done in CM.

The good company commander always shared his men's hardships, and would be relied on to show himself in a battle - I agree.

And gunnergoz, I was asking Jason to post examples, not look for more books to read! I do own MacDonald's book but haven't looked at it in awhile.

I could list some examples of my own. Alec Campbell, company commander of Farley Mowat's company in Sicily, is described as participating in infantry attacks, personally gunning down Germans with a Bren Gun in one example.

I have to believe, though, that just as often he would be co-ordinating the actions of his platoons - close enough to be able to see what the hell was going on, or at least be able to guess at it, perhaps even provide inspiration to the men - but as to actually firing his weapon with his staff, I think that happens more often in CM than it did in the real deal.

I stand to be corrected, but company HQs seem very heroic in CM mainly because their "real" duties can't be simulated in a computer game, giving them no reason not to be in there adding firepower factors to attacks.

[Michael Dorosh]

Forum weirdness....

but I'll respond to JonS.

Yes, haha! How many weapons did Currie fire, or Mahoney? How many Germans did Triquet gun down?

I am not saying the OC was not johnny on the spot, I just don't think he was spraying ammo as liberally as our CM HQs, frankly.

You missed Tilston, the Canadian company commander VC from the Rhineland fighting. He got his for leading his company despite very serious wounds. As to how many Huns he valiantly dispatched, probably far fewer than a CM simulation of the same thing.

[ January 27, 2004, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[gibsonm]

Michael,

LTCOL H Jones VC of Goose Green fame comes to mind of a CO well forward - perhaps too far forward.

[gibsonm]

As far as Chain of Command goes, every O GP I've been in (listening to or giving) has listed an order of seniority. At the Inf Coy level, I 'd suspect this would go:

1. Coy OC

2. Coy 2IC

3. CSM (or First Sgt - I think that's the US equivalent) for the period whilst the Snr Pl Comd is told as he has the best idea of what's going on across the Company and he probably has more experience than a LT.

4. Snr Platoon Commander

5. Next Platoon Commander

6. Junior Platoon Commander

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I stand to be corrected, but company HQs seem very heroic in CM mainly because their "real" duties can't be simulated in a computer game, giving them no reason not to be in there adding firepower factors to attacks.

Interesting double post you have going on there.

Anyway, it depends how you use them in CM I suppose. I tend to use them in fallback or overwatch positions, and to clutch-up oruting or paniced squads. Not quite their 'real role', but not a million miles from it either.

By and large, I tend to find that my pn and coy HQs often have the most ammo left at the end of any engagement - which seems to me realistic.

Regards

JonS

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Michael,

LTCOL H Jones VC of Goose Green fame comes to mind of a CO well forward - perhaps too far forward.

But we're talking about OCs, not COs....

And the reason he has the VC is because he was behaving out of the ordinary! As are the ones JonS mentioned.

Unless we want to reprogram CM so that every man is a VC...?

[xerxes]

I had misunderstood your position a little Michael. I haven't seen many references to company COs participating directly in the fighting. I doubt that occurred very often.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

As far as Chain of Command goes, every O GP I've been in (listening to or giving) has listed an order of seniority. At the Inf Coy level, I 'd suspect this would go:

1. Coy OC

2. Coy 2IC

3. CSM (or First Sgt - I think that's the US equivalent) for the period whilst the Snr Pl Comd is told as he has the best idea of what's going on across the Company and he probably has more experience than a LT.

4. Snr Platoon Commander

5. Next Platoon Commander

6. Junior Platoon Commander

This seems right to me (now that we are answering part of the original question).

In the German rifle company, the Haupfeldwebel (company first sergeant or senior NCO of the company) was expected to take over a platoon where necessary.

Bear in mind German platoon leaders were usually NCOs, with one officer platoon leader per company only. So their rank would designate the seniority. I presume Feldwebel was the approximate rank for the other two platoon leaders, and very often, a company might be led by a Leutnant or Oberleutnant, with all three platoons led by NCOs.

Unthinkable in the Canadian and British armies; they had tried to put NCOs in charge of platoons in 1939 and found they hated the idea. The new appointment of Platoon Serjeant Major was abolishe d in 1940 and the majority of Warrant Officers Class III were commissioned.

[JonS]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

At the Inf Coy level, I 'd suspect this would go:

1. Coy OC

2. Coy 2IC

3. CSM (or First Sgt - I think that's the US equivalent) for the period whilst the Snr Pl Comd is told as he has the best idea of what's going on across the Company and he probably has more experience than a LT.

4. Snr Platoon Commander

5. Next Platoon Commander

6. Junior Platoon Commander

Hmm. I thought that in a formal CoC the FOO was in the no. 2 slot, since he was right there (while the 2iC might be miles away), and was (or should be) fully up to play on the OCs plan.

Naturally this is only temporary, until the 2iC can be brought up and/or the situation stabilises.

Regards

JonS

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

And the reason he has the VC is because he was behaving out of the ordinary! As are the ones JonS mentioned.

Well, I used those ones because they were handy* Yes, they were exceptional, but that can be taken two ways - either it was very far out of the ordinary, or it was an ordinary event done to an exceptional standard. Probably examples of both there.

Just for interest, how many people actually run their OCs out of ammo? As I posted above, I generally don't so I'm having rather a hard time understanding what Michaels objection is.

Oh, also, consider that fighting in CM is more intense across the board, so you'd expect COs and OCs to be more involved (i.e., within the somewhat unrealistic nature of fighting in CM, use of COs and OCs is realistic. Or sumfink.)

As a pseudo-fix, you could go into the editor and halve OC and CO units' ammmo levels. That would restrict their use as shock-troops somewhat

Regards

JonS

* good cross section, some details of particular actions, easy to find and relate, etc.

[JasonC]

Read any combat narratives. The majors and colonels are leading teams and task forces assigned map objectives, they are on the radio coordinating with superiors, they assign companies to various tasks, assess situations etc. If they are in combat it is in a static position because their overall unit is being overrun. Meanwhile the narrative is always full of passages and incidents like these -

Lt. Stephen P. Truppner of Company A radioed that his company had been overrun and asked for artillery to fire on his own position.

During the fighting in the twin villages on the 18th, 1st Lt. R. A. Parker destroyed or immobilized six enemy tanks with a rocket launcher. Parker was awarded the DSC.

A German attempt to cut the road between Consthum and Holzthum failed when Capt. Norman G. Maurer, 3 of the 3d Battalion, leading a sortie of twenty men, surprised the enemy and drove him back with very heavy casualties.

In Marnach the hard-beset garrison fought on, now under the command of the battalion executive officer, Capt. J. H. Burns, who had taken over when the company commander was wounded.

After dark on 17 December a captain led in about twenty-five men of Company I from Weiler, after a desperate march, narrow escapes, and an ambuscade.

Clearly the captains and 1st lieutenants are out leading the men...

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gibsonm:

At the Inf Coy level, I 'd suspect this would go:

1. Coy OC

2. Coy 2IC

3. CSM (or First Sgt - I think that's the US equivalent) for the period whilst the Snr Pl Comd is told as he has the best idea of what's going on across the Company and he probably has more experience than a LT.

4. Snr Platoon Commander

5. Next Platoon Commander

6. Junior Platoon Commander

Hmm. I thought that in a formal CoC the FOO was in the no. 2 slot, since he was right there (while the 2iC might be miles away), and was (or should be) fully up to play on the OCs plan.

Naturally this is only temporary, until the 2iC can be brought up and/or the situation stabilises.

Regards

JonS </font>

[Paco QNS]

From "Mine were of trouble", by Peter Kemp (cited by Mark Hannan):

Before Teruel, the commander of a Bandera of the Spanish Foreign Legion admonishing his officers:

"... there seems to be an idea among officers that their proper place is always at the head of their troops - Company Commanders in front of their companies and Platoon commanders in front of their platoons; also that an officer has a duty to expose himself to enemy fire the whole time, in order to encourage his men. Both these ideas are nonsense, and I will have none of them in my Bandera. The only time an officer´s place is at the head of his men is in the final assault, as you all know.... I assure you that I will deal very severely with any officer I see exposing himself needlessly, or allowing his men to do so. There will, I have no doubt, plenty of suitable occasions for the display of courage; otherwise, an officer must keep his vanity and exhibitionism under restraint". Major Moreno, 14th Bandera, Teruel 1938.

------------------------

From the "Directivas Circunstanciales ... de Alfereces Provisionales" 1938:

"227. Notwithstanding the dispersal of the company and their squads in combat, it is essential for leaders to keep a tight command. They will always assure the reciprocal colaboration of the different platoons and squads, and their joint action with the other arms. They will choose his place in that way they can exert their command over their platoons and squads, and always dominate the battlefield with their eyeview.

The company commander also must always keep in touch with the infantry heavy weapons.

In the culminating combat instant, he will intervene -provided the necesity- with despise of danger.

The platoon leader must be the exemplary combatant in his unit. Both in attack, in shock and in the counterattack, he will impulse his men forward. In defense he will be the spirit of the resistence."

[JonS]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Read any combat narratives. The majors and colonels are leading teams and task forces ...

and higher ...

Brig. Gen. Norman Cota, came on a group of infantry pinned down by some Germans in a farmhouse. He asked the Captain in command why his men were making no effort to take the building.

"Sir, the Germans are in there, shooting at us," the captain replied.

"Well, I'll tell you what, Captain," said Cota, unbuckling two grenades from his jacket. "You and your men start shooting at them. I'll take a squad of men and you and your men watch carefully. I'll show you how to take a house with Germans in it."

Cota led his squad around a hedge to get as close as possible to the house. Suddenly, he gave a whoop and raced forward, the squad following, yelling like wild men. As they tossed grenades into the windows, Cota and another man kicked in the front door, tossed a couple of grenades inside, waited for the explosions, them dashed into the house. The surviving Germans inside were streaming out of the back door, running for their lives.

Cota returned to the captain. "You've seen how to take a house," said the general, still out of breath. "Do you understand?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, I won't be around to do it for you again," Cota said. "I can't do it for everybody."

[ January 27, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

[QB] Read any combat narratives. The majors and colonels are leading teams and task forces assigned map objectives, they are on the radio coordinating with superiors, they assign companies to various tasks, assess situations etc.

Wow. And this is simulated in CM by having them blaze away with machine pistols at anyone in sight/range?

I think we are both talking about the same thing. What did Seanachai say in the civilians thread? Snarling at each other until finding they were in agreement?

I probably overdid it with the "never see the enemy" thing, but I did provide the caveat that it would not have been unheard of rather than saying it was common.

I reiterate - (and I try use my Coy HQs as JonS does, sometimes also as spotters for the company on board mortars, garrisoning a flag, or bolstering a leaderless platoon) - they probably weren't as willing to jump into the fray so readily as they do in CM, and while the OC himself may be, I rather suspect his rad ops might be a bit more reluctant?