How to find PAKs without getting PAKed?

[Tigrii]

What is a good way to locate AT guns besides getting ambushed by them? Any player with a cranium will have them protected by infantry, so infantry scouts don't work. You could sac an AC or something, but they might not take the bait and that might be "gamey!" So how to do? Once located, mortars toast them easily, but their main strength is their ability to remain hidden.

[Tigrii]

What is a good way to locate AT guns besides getting ambushed by them? Any player with a cranium will have them protected by infantry, so infantry scouts don't work. You could sac an AC or something, but they might not take the bait and that might be "gamey!" So how to do? Once located, mortars toast them easily, but their main strength is their ability to remain hidden.

[Lars]

Advance one tank till he has to fire.

And have about four on overwatch to blow him away when he does.

[Lars]

Advance one tank till he has to fire.

And have about four on overwatch to blow him away when he does.

[Michael Emrys]

Dump some arty on suspected AT locations. Even if it doesn't kill him, it'll make his life more difficult. Smoke can help too.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Dump some arty on suspected AT locations. Even if it doesn't kill him, it'll make his life more difficult. Smoke can help too.

Michael

[Gutshot]

1-March your inf in line abreast towards his half of the map,with your tanks following in a tightish group a little way behind.

2-When his inf has to open up on your inf at close range,wipe them out with tank fire.

3-Resume your advance with what's left of your inf,with your tank group following behind again.

4-His AT-guns will shortly have to open up on your inf who are about to walk onto them.

5-Now that you can see his guns,kill them with your tanks.

Brutally simplistic I know,but edited to the bone for lack of space.E-m me anybody for more detailed discussion!

[Gutshot]

1-March your inf in line abreast towards his half of the map,with your tanks following in a tightish group a little way behind.

2-When his inf has to open up on your inf at close range,wipe them out with tank fire.

3-Resume your advance with what's left of your inf,with your tank group following behind again.

4-His AT-guns will shortly have to open up on your inf who are about to walk onto them.

5-Now that you can see his guns,kill them with your tanks.

Brutally simplistic I know,but edited to the bone for lack of space.E-m me anybody for more detailed discussion!

[Michael Dorosh]

Sending infantry ahead and then using those little 50mm mortars once the guns are flushed work pretty good too.

[Michael Dorosh]

Sending infantry ahead and then using those little 50mm mortars once the guns are flushed work pretty good too.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Gutshot:

1-March your inf in line abreast towards his half of the map,with your tanks following in a tightish group a little way behind.

2-When his inf has to open up on your inf at close range,wipe them out with tank fire.

well to have your infantry supported by the tanks requires the tanks to emerge into view of the AT guns. Which is exactly the problem the original poster describes and tries to avoid.

The only part where I agree is to bunch up your tanks. Even if you lose a tank, you still have another one to shoot back with. If you use single tanks they do not give you that opportunity for a return shot. The more, the better.

CMBB makes such bunching easy because tanks are not opaque/solid in terms of LOS. Be careful though because if you bunch them real close then that might very well be considered gamey.

Of course it is a va-banque tactic - you gotta be careful not to lead your bunched-up gaggle of tanks into a trap, else they are *all* in the wrong spot when the feces hits the air conditioner.

[ January 26, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Gutshot:

1-March your inf in line abreast towards his half of the map,with your tanks following in a tightish group a little way behind.

2-When his inf has to open up on your inf at close range,wipe them out with tank fire.

well to have your infantry supported by the tanks requires the tanks to emerge into view of the AT guns. Which is exactly the problem the original poster describes and tries to avoid.

The only part where I agree is to bunch up your tanks. Even if you lose a tank, you still have another one to shoot back with. If you use single tanks they do not give you that opportunity for a return shot. The more, the better.

CMBB makes such bunching easy because tanks are not opaque/solid in terms of LOS. Be careful though because if you bunch them real close then that might very well be considered gamey.

Of course it is a va-banque tactic - you gotta be careful not to lead your bunched-up gaggle of tanks into a trap, else they are *all* in the wrong spot when the feces hits the air conditioner.

[ January 26, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Gutshot]

Bunched tanks are also liable to decimation by an airstrike,I lost 3 shoulder-to-shoulder KV-1s to a single bomb that way,but hey--that's life!

[Gutshot]

Bunched tanks are also liable to decimation by an airstrike,I lost 3 shoulder-to-shoulder KV-1s to a single bomb that way,but hey--that's life!

[MikeyD]

I've notice the AI does something pretty smart, it often manages to place more than one tank in a position to fire on a single target at the same time. Quite often he gets out of the duel beter than I did, but sometimes his tactic results in multiple burning hulks.

Whenever I place AT guns I try to give them a narrow field of view so only one enemy at a time is presented. It's tough breaking a gun in a position like that. If you can get a dedicated hmg working on the gun you might be able to 'shoot & scoot' your tanks into and out of firing position relatively safely.

Of course, if your opponent thought ahead and has anoher gun protecting the first...

[MikeyD]

I've notice the AI does something pretty smart, it often manages to place more than one tank in a position to fire on a single target at the same time. Quite often he gets out of the duel beter than I did, but sometimes his tactic results in multiple burning hulks.

Whenever I place AT guns I try to give them a narrow field of view so only one enemy at a time is presented. It's tough breaking a gun in a position like that. If you can get a dedicated hmg working on the gun you might be able to 'shoot & scoot' your tanks into and out of firing position relatively safely.

Of course, if your opponent thought ahead and has anoher gun protecting the first...

[Gutshot]

Yes Mike,by giving an ATG a narrow field,you're setting up a neat "line of death" which is lethal for anything that blunders into it. I usually put guns smack behind buildings,they can see zilch forwards,but have two lines of death going obliquely forwards past each side of the house.A few guns sited in a town like this will see the town criss-crossed by these lines like a spiders web!Sit tight and wait for the flies!

[Gutshot]

Yes Mike,by giving an ATG a narrow field,you're setting up a neat "line of death" which is lethal for anything that blunders into it. I usually put guns smack behind buildings,they can see zilch forwards,but have two lines of death going obliquely forwards past each side of the house.A few guns sited in a town like this will see the town criss-crossed by these lines like a spiders web!Sit tight and wait for the flies!

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Gutshot:

I usually put guns smack behind buildings,they can see zilch forwards,but have two lines of death going obliquely forwards past each side of the house.A few guns sited in a town like this will see the town criss-crossed by these lines like a spiders web!Sit tight and wait for the flies!

or for inevitable death as the enemy infantry comes through the house.

any opponent that sends his tanks unescorted into an enemy urban area doesn't deserve better.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Gutshot:

I usually put guns smack behind buildings,they can see zilch forwards,but have two lines of death going obliquely forwards past each side of the house.A few guns sited in a town like this will see the town criss-crossed by these lines like a spiders web!Sit tight and wait for the flies!

or for inevitable death as the enemy infantry comes through the house.

any opponent that sends his tanks unescorted into an enemy urban area doesn't deserve better.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Whenever I place AT guns I try to give them a narrow field of view so only one enemy at a time is presented. It's tough breaking a gun in a position like that. If you can get a dedicated hmg working on the gun you might be able to 'shoot & scoot' your tanks into and out of firing position relatively safely.

"keyholing"

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Of course, if your opponent thought ahead and has anoher gun protecting the first...

yes, but maybe he also thought ahead that i would think that he would think ahead and put another gun behind the first, so he might not do it because the thinks I know it, or maybe he thinks that i would think that he thought that i would think that he would think ahead and put another gun behind the first, so he might not do it because the thinks I know it, or maybe he thinks that .....

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Whenever I place AT guns I try to give them a narrow field of view so only one enemy at a time is presented. It's tough breaking a gun in a position like that. If you can get a dedicated hmg working on the gun you might be able to 'shoot & scoot' your tanks into and out of firing position relatively safely.

"keyholing"

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Of course, if your opponent thought ahead and has anoher gun protecting the first...

yes, but maybe he also thought ahead that i would think that he would think ahead and put another gun behind the first, so he might not do it because the thinks I know it, or maybe he thinks that i would think that he thought that i would think that he would think ahead and put another gun behind the first, so he might not do it because the thinks I know it, or maybe he thinks that .....

[RSColonel_131st]

As for putting guns behind houses and let them fire to the side...painfull experience. Did that once, even the AI ate me alife when they tanks kept the distance and their infantry, supported by tank fire at mine, came trough town killing all my guns without them ever firing a shot at an armored target.

Scouting PAK's with infantry can't be that hard. If your enemy has them protected by infantry close by, you can most likely see the gun while you get into the skirmish with infantry.

If your enemy protects them with an infantry belt ahead, chances are his PAK's can't support his Inf. Wipe them out with Tanks and continue Scouting.

Of course, last alternative is to use Armored Cars or similar fast scouting vehicles, with emphasis of fast movement and cover. They are cheaper as a tank if you lose them, and they might be able to spot the gun without staying to long in the cone of fire.

[RSColonel_131st]

As for putting guns behind houses and let them fire to the side...painfull experience. Did that once, even the AI ate me alife when they tanks kept the distance and their infantry, supported by tank fire at mine, came trough town killing all my guns without them ever firing a shot at an armored target.

Scouting PAK's with infantry can't be that hard. If your enemy has them protected by infantry close by, you can most likely see the gun while you get into the skirmish with infantry.

If your enemy protects them with an infantry belt ahead, chances are his PAK's can't support his Inf. Wipe them out with Tanks and continue Scouting.

Of course, last alternative is to use Armored Cars or similar fast scouting vehicles, with emphasis of fast movement and cover. They are cheaper as a tank if you lose them, and they might be able to spot the gun without staying to long in the cone of fire.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

Of course, last alternative is to use Armored Cars or similar fast scouting vehicles, with emphasis of fast movement and cover. They are cheaper as a tank if you lose them, and they might be able to spot the gun without staying to long in the cone of fire.

That doesn't really work in CMBB either. What is needed is a "when shot at, back up, and pop smoke if you can", just like TacOps SOPs allow you to do.

In CMBB the sequence is that the car does not back up when shot at by a gun, even the smallest car shot at by a Pak43 (as opposed to a ISU-122 backing off a Pz IV....), and to make matters worse it turns to the gun, the car rotates in place. With the awfully slow turn rates in CMBB you cannot easily get it back the same way it came anymore, e.g. when it was on a road and is now 45 degrees off. And you cannot fix that with multiple waypoints drawing a curve to the back either because multiple waypoints get delay penalities.

The current order structure and TacAI preferences do not allow realistic gameplay in this regard.

[ January 27, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]