What!!!! (Hull rotating Bug?) - IT IS A BUG!!!!!

[mchlstrt]

I'm still not clear on which sets of orders produce which behavior, but it does seem clear to me that the 'jig & shoot' behavior makes the most sense. Unless the AI is actually calculating that at times it's better to turn 'survivable' Armor to the target before the target can fire. Experience Levels could affect this calculation, I suppose, otherwise I can see no reason for the different behavior in the two cases cited above. I think one of you guys ought to do some tests.

strt

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by tar:

Although I usually agree with Tom W on most issues, I will have to disagree with his assessment on this one.

I don't really see how the direction of the hull rotation relative to turret rotation can really make a big difference. In either case, the gunner is having to counteract a tank motion that is not under his control. The same thing really applies to firing on the move with unstablized guns. About the only issue is that one may need to rotate a bit faster (depending on rotation speeds and range to target), but since this is really dependent on a number of other variables, it isn't a convincing justification for a total prohibition.

My gut feeling is that moving tanks shoot a bit too well anyway. I would like to see a bit more of an advantage to firing from a halt -- even for gyrostabilzed guns. Although not statistically sound, I'm often amazed at how my tanks will often fire several shots from a halt, only to finally hit once they start backing away from the enemy. (I know that this can be explained by the ability to range in, but still I think there should be a bigger "firing on the move" penalty.)

Hi Tar

With the upmost respect I usually I agree with you on most issues as well

I think it is still a matter of crew experience.

I really like the fact the game makes the tank completely stop both the hull and turret rotation before firing. But that is just my opinion.

I think this is ALOT better than the miraculous accuracy that you could get with the M18 and the Greyhound in CMBO while firing on the fast move.

I agree it is possible that in reaction to all the complaints (and a few good rants by yours truly ) about shooting on the fast move in CMBO Steve and Charles may have (perhaps) over compensated with the "no firing while the turret is transversing rule".

I like the way this aspect of the game behaves.

But I would agree and concede, (and I have NOT tested this) perhaps ONLY veteran, crack and elite gunners "could" fire the shot while the turret is rotating but they should have an accuracy modifier applied to the calculation that would make the shot less accurate the same way the shot is less accurate when the tanks is moving.

BUT I don't think there will be a 1.03 update to fix this issue (sadly).

-tom w

[ March 04, 2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Pud]

It will very disappointing if this bug isnt fixed. For someone who loves a manoeuvrist game, with lots of moving and changing angles of attack, all that becomes a bit pointless as the current no "shooting gentleman, we're rotating" (wasnt that a war comedy film in the 60's ) reduces combat movement to be as linear as possible as any change in direction between movement commands leaves your vehicle defenseless. The only safe way to change your angle of movement is to move linear with a rotate command in one turn and carry on again the following turn with the new directions movement, or risk getting caught with you guns down.

As I havent heard back from Matt nor has any forum comment from Charles or Steve I have to assume there isnt going to be no fix.

[Pud]

Originally posted by mchlstrt:

I'm still not clear on which sets of orders produce which behavior,

Any two movement commands that require the vehicle to change direction within the same turn will disable the main gun until that rotation is complete.

[edit - by movement I mean Move, Reverse, Fast, Shoot and Scoot.

I suspect it will also happen with Hunt so long as the rotation has commenced]

[ March 04, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Pud:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mchlstrt:

I'm still not clear on which sets of orders produce which behavior,

Any two movement commands that require the vehicle to change direction within the same turn will disable the main gun until that rotation is complete. </font>

[Pud]

I think you have misread the problem that is occuring. The problem is not the movement command leading up to the rotate nor is it the movement command after the rotate, nor is it the rotate command itself (as given by the player). It is only the rotate command between movement. Once this rotate has started it will not be interrupted to llow the vehicle to fire, regardless of threat.

With hunt, sure it will stop if a target is spotted during the hunt but if no target is engaged while the hunt command is in operation the tank will continue until its second waypoint is reached and the new movement commandis activated. If this requires a rotation to occur to allow this second order to be carried out, it is during thie rotation that the gun will not fire.

Again, this bug is only during the rotation and only during rotation that is AI generated.

This could be fixed if the rotation between movement commands acted like the player given rotate order.

[Pud]

Ok just did alot more tests.

The only command sequence which this bug doesnt happen with if the second movement command is a hunt. It will actually stop the rotate and fire.

However it still occurs with a hunt+move or fast+move, move+reverse,fast+reverse, move+move, move+fast, hunt+reverse etc etc.

[JonS]

yeah, so where is the surprise with that?

With Hunt, vehicles are supposed tyo stop to engage.

With everything else they are supposed to keep moving.

Amazingly enough, this is what you discovered.

I'm still not seeing a bug.

Poor use of commands: yes

Bug: no

The game didn't do what you thought it should/would: yes

bug: no

Regards

JonS

[Pud]

JonS, you are now just being foolish. You believe that a move forward (in which you can shoot) followed by another move forward which you can fire during, but the turn in between can not be interrupted regardless of any threat, target or reason.

It is logical that the correct way this should be handled is equiv to the following

move+rotate+move = move + player ordered rotate + move.

bug yes, Poor orders no sorry you are wrong again.

Please if you have nothing to add other than insulting someones game style please take it elsewhere.

[edit typo]

[ March 04, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[Priest]

Hmmm I have read this thread but as I am at work cannot go into detail on the subject. That being said I have not had any issues at all with this in the game.

Oh and Pud from my experience it is not usually wise to say that JonS is wrong without a much more thouroughly supported theory. Say like someone from BFC agreeing with you. Just my opinion.

[Pud]

Priest, his attitude is very provocative without adding a thing to this thread.

Simple thing is A vehicles Ai generate rotate between moves should be treated like a player rotate. ie vehicle will pause to fire and continue on.

He obviously has a problem with this even though it is logical way it should be handled. Defending a claim to a bug by attacking a players style of play is silly. The bug occurs regardless of style.

[edit -BFC - bit hard to get their opinion/reasons for this with no comment from them ]

[ March 04, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]

[JonS]

The thing is that it is not (move) + (AI generated rotate) + (move)

It is (move) + (move)

And since the AI knows that it is not to stop during move orders, it doesn't. Is that so hard to understand?

The curly bit, and the bit that you seem to keep getting hung up on, is that it seems that between the move orders the AI is throwing in a rotate. It isn't. It is simply pivoting the tank around to the next direction as part of the second order. This is why (anything) + (hunt) will have the tanks stop to fire during the pivot, while (anything, including hunt) + (anything except hunt) will not have the tanks stop.

Is that clear?

A second and seperate issue is whether tanks should be able to fire while pivoting. That is an absolute 'no', for the reasons given in this thread (best stated by BadgerDog, but clarified by others).

Together these two issues saw your tank get smoked. Sad one. If you had used a different set of order your tank would likely still be alive. Get over it, and stop blaming the game.

Regards

JonS

[Pud]

You really dont see what going on do you, ok I give up. Its sad that BFC has taken to ignore this bug hoping it will go away. Its sad that you have fail to add anything to this bug report.

This bug may not have happened to you yet but it will.

Thanks to those who have contributed to this threads discussion, Tom - even though we disagree you have shown once again to be a great contributor to these board. Badgerdog, some great historical info. JonS - well it goes without saying

[JonS]

No, I understand exactly what is going on, and it has happened to me. I just happen to think it is a Good Thing™ because it is realistic and consistent, and don't want to see it changed.

You don't like the fact that the AI didn't over-ride your orders and stop to kill the marder. Fine. You want BFC to change the game so that during any pivoting or rotation of the hull, the vehicle will stop to allow the gunner to fire the main armament. This is not fine.

The way the game works now, Hunt and MtC are the only orders which will cause the vehicle to stop to fire. (Since MtC cancels all subsequent orders, I'm going to ignore it and only refer to 'hunt' and 'everything else')

A pivot at the start of any 'hunt' order will be interrupted to allow firing.

A pivot at the start of any 'other' order will not be interrupted.

This is entirely consistent with the behaviour of all orders. Hunt = stop to engage, everything else = keep moving.

In the specific circumstances of your inital post, having the tank pause so the gunner could engage the marder makes sense. However, I can think of any number of situtaions where stopping to engage during a pivot is not what is wanted. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what they might be (hint: think the enemy is bigger than you, and EFOW).

This is why I disagree that this is a bug. You want to make the behaviour during any AI-generated pivot inconsistent with the behaviour of the order that created the need for that pivot.

There, am I being clear enough for you? Am I being "constructive" enough for you? Or would you prefer that we all just join your merry bandwagon and not think about what is going on?

Regardless

JonS

[ March 04, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Kwazydog]

Pud, to be honest there is no bug here for us to ignore. Youve got to remember that if someone see's a tank commander in game who looks like he missed a spot shaving they shout bug, so its not easy to answer all of these questions and keep working.

Ive run it past Charles and what Jon said above has summed up his reply pretty well.

Generally to accomplish what you are trying too I place a few waypoints in a small arc for my vehicles if I wish them turn which still retaining some control over their behaviour. You will find that two or three well placed hunt commands will order a tank to take a wider arc than normal, but it will continue to hunt for enemy tanks during this turn as it wont need to use a rotate command for very long at all to complete its order.

Also, remember that in CM a tank rotating is actually somewhat of an abstratcion, as most WW2 tanks cant pivot on the spot and need to drive backwards and forward to complete the turn.

Dan

[ March 04, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Visom]

Originally posted by JonS:

You don't like the fact that the AI didn't over-ride your orders and stop to kill the marder.

That's not how I read Puds post. As I read it the question is:

"If I can shoot at a target while moving fast, why can't I shoot at it while pivoting?"

I assume you read his post as:

"I want my tank to stop pivoting, shoot and then continue pivoting."

Correct?

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Visom:

"If I can shoot at a target while moving fast, why can't I shoot at it while pivoting?"

Its an abstraction, but its becuase in reality your tank is completing a series of fast forward and backward movements in order to turn that would make it next to impossible to take aim and fire.

Dan

[ March 04, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[JonS]

Visom,

Actually, I read it both ways.

Previous posts have addressed both issues. BadgerDog explained why real tanks can't fire why pivoting. Dan has just explained why CMBB tanks can't. Hopefully the fallacy of stopping-to-shoot-while-on-a-move-order is clear enough.

Regards

JonS

[ March 04, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by JonS:

No, I understand exactly what is going on, and it has happened to me. I just happen to think it is a Good Thing™ because it is realistic and consistent, and don't want to see it changed.

You don't like the fact that the AI didn't over-ride your orders and stop to kill the marder. Fine. You want BFC to change the game so that during any pivoting or rotation of the hull, the vehicle will stop to allow the gunner to fire the main armament. This is not fine.

The way the game works now, Hunt and MtC are the only orders which will cause the vehicle to stop to fire. (Since MtC cancels all subsequent orders, I'm going to ignore it and only refer to 'hunt' and 'everything else')

A pivot at the start of any 'hunt' order will be interrupted to allow firing.

A pivot at the start of any 'other' order will not be interrupted.

This is entirely consistent with the behaviour of all orders. Hunt = stop to engage, everything else = keep moving.

In the specific circumstances of your inital post, having the tank pause so the gunner could engage the marder makes sense. However, I can think of any number of situtaions where stopping to engage during a pivot is not what is wanted. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what they might be (hint: think the enemy is bigger than you, and EFOW).

This is why I disagree that this is a bug. You want to make the behaviour during any AI-generated pivot inconsistent with the behaviour of the order that created the need for that pivot.

There, am I being clear enough for you? Am I being "constructive" enough for you? Or would you prefer that we all just join your merry bandwagon and not think about what is going on?

Regardless

JonS

JonS!

Good post

clear and consistant

as Kwazy Dog mentioned I would guess Charles (if he had the time and inclination) could have written something like that but knowing Charles it may have been even more concise.

I would say the bottom line here is this is not a bug, it is the way the game was intended to work and it models historical reality as Badgerdog has mentioned.

Sorry

-tom w

[Hat Trick]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Visom:

"If I can shoot at a target while moving fast, why can't I shoot at it while pivoting?"

Its an abstraction, but its becuase in reality your tank is completing a series of fast forward and backward movements in order to turn that would make it next to impossible to take aim and fire.

Dan </font>

[mchlstrt]

FWIW my take is that it's an inconsistancy that comes up because this is an abstraction & at some point someone (Charles, ultimately?) has to make a call one way or the other. To simplify the situation using Hunt & Move: the Player can give precedence to Engaging or to Manuvering, depending on which Order they use. Rotating as part of a Manuver-First Order falls a little bit in the cracks. It does seem unrealitic that a Gunner would even try to hit anything while this jostling was going on, & the 'Manuver-Firstness' of the Order precludes stopping for anything. I can imagine telling my TinCan to reverse behind those Woods quick, before that SuperUberDooperLeviathan gets it's Turret swung around, & then pulling my hair out as it stops to throw spitballs 'til it gets holed. Now that I understand what's going on, & know the 'workarounds', I think this is the Right Call. How many pages the Manual would have to contain to clarify all these little points, & the effect that Page count would have on your average Noob, is another discussion.

strt

[Hat Trick]

mschlstrt--

Fair point. If the move and reverse orders give priority to moving, while the rotate and hunt orders give priority to firing, that's a reasonable design decision, and so be it.

However, I was reacting (at least at the start of my post -- I probably got carried away) to the statement that "in reality your tank is completing a series of fast forward and backward movements in order to turn that would make it next to impossible to take aim and fire" when, in fact, we have examples where tanks do stop and fire under these circumstances.

[Sergei]

How can I know, how fast my tank pivots on spot? Has some kind soul collected these things into a database? And maybe in future titles this could be revealed just like the turret turn rate.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Hat Trick:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KwazyDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Visom:

"If I can shoot at a target while moving fast, why can't I shoot at it while pivoting?"

Its an abstraction, but its becuase in reality your tank is completing a series of fast forward and backward movements in order to turn that would make it next to impossible to take aim and fire.

Dan </font>