Any Tactical Use of Panzer Grenadiere?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RockinHarry:

I think if half tracks/armored cars were so vulnerable from small calibre (<8mm) HMG fire, these would´ve been taken out of service very quickly.

I can not make a pizza in my kitchen blender, but that does not mean I will retire it.

All the best

Andreas</font>

[Andreas]

You haven't seen me cooking, obviously.

All the best

Andreas

[Vergeltung]

ah, you can always count on this place for some fantastic slams against the Germans by the soviet apologia crowd.

beautiful!

[bitchen frizzy]

Originally posted by Vergeltung:

ah, you can always count on this place for some fantastic slams against the Germans by the soviet apologia crowd.

beautiful!

:confused:

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Vergeltung:

ah, you can always count on this place for some fantastic slams against the Germans by the soviet apologia crowd.

beautiful!

Feel free to explain what that is supposed to mean anytime you get around to assembling a coherent thought.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Lightly armoured German vehicles were designed to be "SmK-Sicher" AFAIK, i.e. to keep SmK projectiles out. I presume .50 HMGs and Soviet 14.5mm ATRs to have a better penetration performance, and would expect HTs to not be safe from them. AFAIK the modern Fuchs is designed to keep ATR and .50 projectiles out, so the definition of SmK-sicher has changed since then.

All the best

Andreas

[RockinHarry]

Thanks for all additional postings containing more usable info this time! Beside what we know already, I would be more interested in (unit) experience reports that describe particular actions of various Panzergrenadier, as well as mechanized infantry of the other nations at war in WW2, particularly when it comes to mounted combat.

It seems that beside overrunning an enemy that has no effective AT defense installed, mounted combat was most oftenly applied in pursuit battles, just after a breakthrough. Would like to find more RL examples about this.

RE CM HMG efficiency vs half tracks: My last statements were a bit provoking and false in some regards, in fact CM appears to handle this mechanics in quite some realistic, yet abstracted manners.

While HMG34/42 have good chances vs. allied and russian lightly armored stuff (dependent upon range and hit angle), success is not automatic though. Plastering german HT with a 7,62mm Maxim is a waste of ammo, even at very close ranges and immobile targets. The SG43 appears to have more hitting power, as well as some AP capability. At least I managed to turn some 251 HT into fireballs with few well aimed bursts from that SG43, at ranges of between 200 to 300m. :eek:

Did not do any tests in CMAK, but I guess the cal.30 has a little bit of punch and I also know the US had plenty of that black nose AP ammo available for their Garands and surely the Brownings too.

Not sure what the Brits had in this regard. I´ve not stumbled over 303 AP ammo yet, but that does not mean there wasn´t any, or it wasn´t use in great numbers.

[Andreas]

.303 AP ammo was produced, but I have no idea about the scale of issue.

http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/303CartRTT.htm

In 1940 3rd British ID undertook a Brigade attack on the Dunkirk approaches to delay the German advance, using the carriers as light armour. They found out the hard way that carriers were not SmK proof during that attack.

All the best

Andreas

[JasonC]

Here is a penetration table for the 303, ball and AP, from scanned Brit documents on air to air weaponry, for an air combat forum

Ball ammo, 0 degrees deflection

200 yards 4mm

400 yards 3mm

AP ammo, 0 degrees / 20 degrees / 40 degrees

200 yards 9mm / 5mm / 4mm

400 yards 7mm / 4mm / -

600 yards 6mm / 3mm / -

Same source gives this table for 50 cal

200 yards 20mm / 14mm / 8mm

400 yards 18mm / 11mm / 7mm

600 yards 16mm / 9mm / 7mm

So it would appear a Vickers with AP ammo would barely be dangerous to an SPW under 300 yards with extremely flat side angle, and with common side angles would be completely ineffective.

50 cal on the other hand would be dangerous even from the front at close range, and from the sides even with significant side angle and at medium range.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Good stuff! Saw a pre War newsreel announcing the U.S. Army had taken the dual purpose .50 caliber

antitank/antiaircraft weapon into service. The newsreel showed the water cooled version on the high AA mounting!

Regards,

John Kettler

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by JasonC:

There are 3 rounds involved (maybe 4), in considering the AP effect of German 7.92mm from HMGs.

Most ammo was the standard "heavy" bullet, with pathetic AP properties. 5mm at point blank, 3mm at 500 yards. Wouldn't hurt a halftrack, barely hurt a truck in material damage terms. These were around 90% of the rounds produced.

The top of the line AP was the smKH, which is tungsten core. Those could penetrate up to 15mm. But they were rare - 1% of production and discontinued due to tungsten shortages in March of 1942, with the last field issue in February 1943. Priority uses were the Panzer I (to give any AP ability at all) and aircraft. The chance of a typical foot MG 34 team having any of these in a typical belt is miniscule.

But the third type is the smk (no H), which was steel core. Types with that designation made up to 8% of production. And here is the main reason why, and why they would be common enough to be in a typical MG belt - the *tracer* round for the MG 34 was a modification of the smK, not of the standard heavy (uncored) bullet.

People put in tracers typically every 6 to 12 rounds to see what they are shooting at. With the high ROF German MGs, you don't need them as often as with lower ROF types, meaning there can be more regular rounds between each tracer, but you do add them to the belt. Hence the relatively high portion of production.

What was the penetration performance of the smK that wasn't smkH? Sources on it vary, but most say either 8mm or 10mm at 100 yards flat. It isn't going to hole a typical US halftrack at 400m, but at close range, sure.

In CM, they give enhanced AP performance to all the MGs, compared to single round weapons like ATRs. They apparently meant this to reflect weakening of plates from multiple hits. But it is dubious at best, especially when the AP quality ammo is really only 1 or 2 rounds in a typical burst. The behind armor effect of only a few rounds per burst penetrating is also going to be quite low, and not the swiss cheese effect the designers apparently imagined (most hits have 3-5m penetration ability and will simply bounce etc).

The bottom line is that HMG 42s and 34s in CM shred early Russian tanks far too readily. Other people's MGs get a boost from the automatic thing, but in my experience are rarely actually effective below the 50 cal varieties. (Through multiple causes - SPWs have 15mm fronts, the flanks usually show side angle, the ranges are typically medium, etc).

50 cals are effective and deserve to be. German HMGs deserve to be moderately dangerous to thin 8mm stuff, close in and with sustained fire, but in the game hole thicker stuff at longer ranges than it probably should, with single bursts having too high an behind armor effect, and e.g. US halftracks being intensely vulnerable within about 400m, which they would generally fail to actually kill.

Incidentally, the "maybe 4" above stems from the fact that smK existed in non tracer as well as tracer form. Might slightly increase the portion in a typical belt, but more likely upped the effectiveness of aircraft 7.92mms, since those had a dedicated anti-materiel role.

Thanks, interesting info. :cool: That coincides in largest parts with my own sources, in particular production numbers of those 7,9mm "sS" and "SmK" rounds and their "Steel armor" penetration capabilities. What my sources (add. field regulations concerning traing of HMG units, HDV-73, HDV-130/3a ect.) lack is ammo delivery numbers to the various branches (army, airforce) which could make a difference on availability of SmK, as well as SmKL rounds in army units, particularly the specialized ones (HMG, AA). Basically the SmKL rounds were intended for use vs aircraft targets, but I also know the readied ammo belts were used on the regular tripod mounted (not AA mount) HMG 34/42, although I would think this unecessarily reveals the fire positions, particulaly in night combat. Tracers have been used to mark lines of advance or enemy positions though. The section about night combat in the FM´s do not tell anything about the use of tracer rounds, so I assume this was a "field innovation". As said I lack good info about "ammunition tactics", but I would be interested to have that cleared. None of my sources give any info about ammo composition of belts (drums) used on HMG (as well as lMG), so I would think it´s assumed that sS type is assumed to be used all the time. The sections in the FMs about combat vs armored vehicles is just very few lines and a bit more detailed for the AA role:

HDV 130/3a (FM for training of HMG Cpy.) , point 373:

"If available, when fighting air targets, SmK ammo is to be used and SmkL(H) belted in at a ratio of 1:3"

point 396:

Behavior under enemy tank attack

"Parts (of the MG units) who have SmK ammunition available, are to join the defence at close and point blank range and support the combat of the AT guns. Also sS ammunition can be used at vision slits at point blanc range to endanger crew members through lead squirts. (...)"

Just to supplement some of the info here. As said, I find the CM abstracted handling and "effects" of HMG vs. light armor to be realistic enough.

I hope that a CMX2, dealing with WW2 combat (hopefully anytime after CMSF) gives "mounted combat" a more serious consideration, as it was heavily put into practice by germans at least during the second half of WW2. Changes of the FMs and doctrine were directly derived from combat experiences in the east and not vice versa.

Sources used: Guderian/Munzel - Panzer Marsch!, Middeldorf - Taktik im Russlandfeldzug, Wehren - Gefechtsausbildung der Panzergrenadiere, Fleischer - Die motorisierten Schützen und Panzergrenadiere des deutschen Heeres 1935 -1945

as well as (german site):

http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/44.0.html

http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/77.0.html

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Andreas:

...

In 1940 3rd British ID undertook a Brigade attack on the Dunkirk approaches to delay the German advance, using the carriers as light armour. They found out the hard way that carriers were not SmK proof during that attack.

All the best

Andreas

I had this happening in a PBEM where my opponent (on the defence) charged an area with a single Bren carrier to find out about my attacking units whereabouts. One overwatching HMG42 of mine finished it off with 2-3 bursts at range of 150m I think. Not sure if my opponent knew about SmK.

[John Kettler]

Andreas,

Would suspect that the Fuchs is actually designed to defeat the very common 12.7mm/.51 caliber "Dushka" and later NSVT, rather than the U.S. .50 caliber M2 HMG. The U.S. Stryker has the far more demanding task of resisting the 14.5mm KPVT.

RockinHarry,

Standard practice during the War (and not depicted in CM) was to load the BAR with nothing but AP ammo. This was done specifically to defeat cover.

Am not sure, though, about the various Browning .30 caliber MGs and their ammo loads.

Regarding the German halftracks, at least those of the 250 and 251 series, their sharply angled armor would've further reduced Vickers effectiveness against them when firing AP, whereas the slab sided M2/M3/M5 series halftracks made great targets compared to their German counterparts.

A search of the CMBO archives should produce some armor penetration plots for the HMG-42 and .50 caliber M2 vs. the opposing country's halftrack.

Technically known as cardioid diagrams, these plots show the armor penetration range as a function of target aspect angle relative to the firing MG. It's shortest nose on, opens up progressively as the angle nears perpendicular (max range) to the side, then begins to taper off until dead rear is reached, after which the process begins anew.

There was supposed to be a whole stack of such weapon plots produced, and not just for HMGs, but something disrupted the process of producing these extremely useful weapon performance diagrams.

Regards,

John Kettler

[coe]

interesting - conversation - wonder why the different philosophies on weapons for the half tracks (U.S. .50 cal heavy machine gun (not as good in terms of volume of fire out there against infanty but good penetrating and AA power, germans have MG34/42 - volume good against infantry but not as good against light armor

btw, have you ever tried in CMAK doing a german aircraft strike against 50 U.S. half tracks - that's like fifty AA guns at your plane...

C.

[coe]

It would have made sense to have all the German Half tracks start to sport AA capable machine guns instead of the MG34/42 (which isn't as effective as 12.7mm). I liked the idea of the Kangaroos on the British side...now that's an APC that would be harder to beat (wait is the Kangaroo the APC version of the Stuart or is it the one of the Priest? either way both are good ideas - they kind of remind me of the APC the US used in Vietnam.

by the way why isn't the German Halftrack with the 37mm gun which can still carry a headquarters size unit not in CMAK?

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

RockinHarry,

Standard practice during the War (and not depicted in CM) was to load the BAR with nothing but AP ammo. This was done specifically to defeat cover.

Am not sure, though, about the various Browning .30 caliber MGs and their ammo loads.

Regards,

John Kettler

Interesting! From the many german battlefield finds, I know that the black nosed 0.30 was quite widespread in US units. I´ve even seen Garand clips including at least 1-2 of those black nose rounds. 0.50 appears to be even more varied with many AP and incendiary to be found.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by coe:

by the way why isn't the German Halftrack with the 37mm gun which can still carry a headquarters size unit not in CMAK?

You probably overlooked, the SdKfz 251/10, as well as the 250/10 are there (vehicles)!