When is a turret penetration not a penetration?

[Juardis]

Damndest thing I've ever seen. I'm playing a game where a Ju-87G has top turret penetrated either one T-34 twice or two separate T-34s. It or they are still alive and firing. I have penetrated a KV-1 3 times. One side turret, two front turret penetrations, from a Stug-III. The side turret from about 300m, the two front turret penetrations from about 100m. It is still alive and moving (no death clock here).

So obviously I'm a little pissed at the moment. Even when I do things right it doesn't work out. I suck at armor, at least I do in CMBO. So I became really good with infantry. Now that infantry is worthless on the same field with AFVs, I need to improve my armor skills. I was hoping I would be better with armor in CMBB, but if this is what I can expect, I might as well hang up the AP and go play Magic Online or something.

Anyway, I whine too much. Is it possible that even though it says turret penetration that it really isn't a penetration? And if so, what else is there to do? If I can't kill a KV-1 with 3 turret penetrations from less than 300m from a Stug-III, and I can't kill a T-34 from a tank-busting JU-87G, then what the hell is a) the Ju-87 good for and why shouldn't every Russian player NOT pick a KV-1 every possible time?

[Bertram]

I have actually had more luck killing KV-1's then T-34. Especially T-34's seem to need several penetrations before they (or the crew) are so damaged that they can't function anymore. This is using PzkwIII 's, so it might be a matter of calibre of the gun (I guess the Ju is a small calibre as well, though the Stug should be larger).

Bertram

[Juardis]

How realistic is it that a tank would take several penetrations and the crew still be able to function and the controls still work. I have no experience in this regard, but the thought of an AP round penetrating the turret, sending shell fragments all around, and not wounding more than one person or damaging key equipment is hard to believe. I can only imagine the carnage that 3 penetrations would cause, but apparently not much according to CMBB. So I'm guessing that when the game says turret penetration, it does not necessarily mean that it entered the crew compartment, just that some small amount of the shell breached the hull. Would that be an accurate statement?

[Bertram]

All depending on the calibre and the remaining energy (speed) the bullet has when hitting and/or entering. I remember reading in a diary from a TC where he told how small calibre penetrations just made one or two richocets in the tank, and then dropped to the floor. One landed in the lap of the driver, who ditched it cursing as it was rather hot. Somewhere else there was a mention of a Tiger with 150(?) hits, several (patial) penetrations and still functioning.

Bertram

[Nightshade]

Plenty of tanks penetrated multiple time in WWII and stil able to function. HOWEVER - the crew's (particularly poor Russian one's) likely to leg it or be 'shocked' and be suprised if there is not at least a casualty. Most turret penetrations are turret i.e. commander. That ought to cause some problems. Occasionally shells passed right through the tanks (88's, long 50's 75/70 etc) killing no one.

I have noticed with the little 37mm 'doorknocker' you often have to hit a few time's.

[Nightshade]

Plenty of tanks penetrated multiple time in WWII and stil able to function. HOWEVER - the crew's (particularly poor Russian one's) likely to leg it or be 'shocked' and be suprised if there is not at least a casualty. Most tank penetrations are turret i.e. commander. That ought to cause some problems. Occasionally shells passed right through the tanks (88's, long 50's 75/70 etc) killing no one.

I have noticed with the little 37mm 'doorknocker' you often have to hit a few time's.

[Juardis]

Yes Bertram, that is what I'm getting at. If it says turret penetration, I guess that could mean anything from a few fragments just entering the compartment at the end of it's energy curve to being the full calibre impact causing death and destruction everywhere. But I thought that there was a message saying "partial turret penetration" when something like that happened in which case I interpret turret penetration as being the full calibre entering and causing death and destruction

[Bone_Vulture]

Recently, I was defending as the Germans in a TCP/IP game. My Stug III climbed on a small hill, and was suddenly faced by three T-34/85's coming out of hiding! :eek:

After typing "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" several dozen times in the radio chat to reflect my emotions, I was stunned to see the results: The Stug took about five hits to the front armor, with two penetrations, a gun hit and a partial penetration. Miraculously, the crew only suffered a single casualty, and after a moment of being "shocked", the Stug reversed back to the other side of the hill for safety.

Talk about amazing resilience... My opponent dubbed the lucky tank as "Super Stug".

[Spanish Bombs]

I know this only touches on the 'top penetration' issue, and I haven't experienced the frustration of a Stuka top-penetration without a 'kill', but I posted a thread a few months ago after noticing that some of my partisans had repeated 'top penetrations' to Halftracks with molotovs and there was no ill effects to the HTs. As I recall, Madmatt replied that the label 'top penetration' itself could be somewhat innaccurate, and could account for any number of non-fatal events. I'll see if I can dig up the thread.

[Spanish Bombs]

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=002491

OK, there is the thread, and it looks like the topic may have been specific to Moltov's, so I'm not sure it helps this query. However, it was interesting to note that 'top penetration' could mean a number of things that weren't exactly 'top penetrations'.