Russian 85 mm AA Gun

[R-Man]

Why does this gun not have any AP? Is it a historical thing? One would think that if the 85 mm tank gun has AP, the AA gun would also.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

While I can only hazard a guess, an 85mm AP round would just rip right through an airplane. It would go in one end and come right out the other. However, a HE round would explode cause much more widespread damage, fire etc. So in the end there isn't a need for AP. Just a guess to keep the thread up until someone comes along with 400 pages of technical data.

[rexford]

I've seen some penetration range stuff for the 85mm Flak versus the Tiger from Russian sources.

The 88mm L56 gun that Rommel used so effectively was a flak, and that gun had plenty of APCBC and some APCR.

The Russians had 76.2mm and 85mm flak guns and both of them fired armor piercing rounds.

[Grisha]

Good point, rexford, and one I've wondered about as well. The 85mm AA gun, along with the 76,2mm field gun were known as the "crash-boom" guns in 1941. They were highly effective against German armor that year.

[Grisha]

Rexford,

Did a google search with "crash boom 85mm" and came up with a link from one of Valera's archived forums. This data was posted by Valera himself:

Soviet 85mm antiaircraft guns (both mod.1939 and mod.1944) used against heavily armored tanks WITH A BIG SUCCESS!

Ammo for 85mm AA gun model 1939 (52-K):

UBR-365K (AP with a sharp nose, muzzle vel.800 m/s);

UBR-367PK (sub-caliber of a reel form, muzzle vel.1050 m/s)

UBR-367P (sub-caliber, muzzle vel.1024 m/s)

Penetration with BR-365:

100 meters at 90/60 degrees -- 119/97 mm

500 meters at 90/60 degrees -- 111/91 mm

1500 meters at 90/60 degrees -- 93/76 mm

Ammo for 85mm AA gun model 1944 (KS-1):

UBR-366K (armor-piercing, muzzle vel. 870m/s)

UBR-367PK (sub-caliber, muzzle vel. 1050m/s)

[Grisha]

In that same archived thread, Valera posted this as well:

"Were the Soviet 85's regularly used in a ground role? Or rarely?"

As often as Germans used their 88-mm Flaks in that role.

[Becket]

Odd. Just bought an 85mm AA gun to test, because I remembered it having AP ammo.

Tested 1941 and 1943, and it does have AP ammo.

[Becket]

Here's a pic from the 1943 test:

<img src=http://cross.phpwebhosting.com/AP_85.JPG>

[ September 20, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Becket ]

[R-Man]

Gentlemen, we may have a bug.

I tested December 1941 and 1943. Both had a load of AP. I went back to June 1944 and it was all HE. I know I have tried using the 85 mm AA gun another time and it was also all HE, so I stopped going to it. I could probably spend the next hour testing every combination of month and year to narrow down the problem, but I won't.

Do somefink.

I need a decent gun to fend off the Tigers and Panthers. I'm stuck with the over-priced 57 mm Zis 2. That is the only gun that stands a chance, and after the Tungston is gone, all hope is lost against the Tigers.

[Oddball_E8]

it might just be a question of supply problems... maby there wasnt alot of AP rounds for it... like for the 76,2mm guns in early war russia...

[flamingknives]

AIUI, the 88mm Flak as used by Rommel was issued as a dual purpose gun. The first use of it as an AT weapon was in Spain, where the HE would have been effective against the mighty T26s. Prior to that it ahd been a pure AA gun, presumably firing HE only.

[R-Man]

I've been playing spring/summer 1944 and can't get an 85 mm with HE. I tested June through October with no luck. Come November and the AP was back in the load.

This does not appear to be a supply issue, as one would think the summer months of 1944 were good to the Russians. I think it's a code problem, but have no way of knowing.

By the way, I played a quick battle against the computer last night with the 85 mm AP. The AA gun took out a Tiger at 600 m with a side shot. One shot one kill. Had I missed, and that Tiger squared-up, I fear the consequences for my entire force. It was 1943 and all I had were T-34s.

[WWB]

Just a bit of conjecture here, but might it be historically accurate to lose the AP. By the summer of 44 there were alot of 85mm equipped T34s floating about which used the AP ammo. While at the same time the number of german tanks on the front was decreasing, and the soviets were on the offensive. Given the state of mechanization in the soviet army in 44, I doubt they had too many resources to drive around very heavy AAA. Nor much need to.

IIRC, if you needed 85mm AA with AP you could add it in the editor in 44 as well.

WWB