Biltong's Campaign Rules - Last Lap

[Biltong]

Something else,

Just finished XXXXXXX ME.

I xxxxxxx raced to the flag and held it: 98% Total Vic.

The AI/Allies never had a chance since I got there first. They kept on feeding men piecemeal into the killzone.

I think when creating a ME map one must provide multiple flags and give the AI a fair chance to get to the majority of the flags first. With the Axis arriving soon thereafter, (moving fast).

The AI will still only have a small portion of it's force in position - it tends to drag it's feet and stagger it's forces when moving forward and the resulting battle should still play like a ME.

What do you guys think - anything else picked up while playing the maps.?

BTW - never use a Green 81mm mortar FO at night - I repositioned the target 4 times - each time in sight of the FO... Each time the shells fell way off - up to a kilo away. Last barrage fell on my own men Stopped trying after that!

[Apache]

The rules and their various add-on's are just not what I suspect most people would refer to as a mod, simple as that really. Like you say, they can be called whatever is wanted but I doubt many will agree they are a mod.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

The rules and their various add-on's are just not what I suspect most people would refer to as a mod, simple as that really. Like you say, they can be called whatever is wanted but I doubt many will agree they are a mod.

Ok - to hell with MOD - What about a GroB (short for Growling Bunny) - see here: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002941

[History Buff]

Anyone got the Rules 1.5 in pdf format yet?

I got an excell reader on my mac, ut when I print it out, well it isn't readable.

I can't seem to export them on my machine.

Any please help.

Thanx in advance.

[Captain_Blue]

Thanks Biltong and all who have worked on these rules!

I played my first battle today using them, and it was refreshing to "care" about my battle group's units

I'm not sure if you have a specific thread where people can ask basic questions about the rules - but I have one.

Regarding Attached Units - After earning enough points to buy 3 attached units, do you simply continue to upgrade the units with all of the additional "attached unit" points that you will receive as the battles go by?

Are the points cumulative for the entire length of the campaign?

If that is the case, then it seems like you could end up with the most high-powered arty spotter or tank as part of your permanent battle group within the span of a few battles.

Thanks in advance!

[Biltong]

Originally posted by History Buff:

Anyone got the Rules 1.5 in pdf format yet?

Or - does anyone know how I can make a PDF set for H-Buff? Scooby normally does this, but he's away till the 1st (I think).

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Captain_Blue:

... it seems like you could end up with the most high-powered arty spotter or tank as part of your permanent battle group within the span of a few battles.

Thanks in advance!

Howzit Capt'

Yep could happen, except for one line at the bottom of Note 6 - Attached Units:

"In an Emergency Reorganization (Note 2) these units must be used as replacements first."

This spells death to the attached units...

You can only 'keep' them if you don't have any casualties at all. And if that happens you'll be winning every battle and then the next rule kicks in: Note 12 - Player Experience: "If you win more than 6 battles in a row – increase your Player Experience by one notch."

So - you can't keep on winning and you won't be able to keep them - sorry

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Not really thought the implications through yet but, having just manually rolled up a battle (part of me still likes the anticipation/dread of what each number will bring) I wondered whether it would be better to bring the whole of the General Battle Parameters up under date/time etc. etc. rolling up everyting to do with the battlefield itself first. It does seem odd that some of those are rolled up right at the beginning but not others, especially when you do an Air roll and then have to drop down the sheet to do trees etc. then come back up again.

On the list Apache

[Apache]

I should be able to send out an attempt I have made at a major action rule ( which is still in a very embryonic state) on 2/1/03. It may need quite a lot of work in some areas but it represents what I currently use and works quite well.

Just a few other thoughts on the tidying up front:

1) Is there a need for a glossary of terms in the Intro Doc and/or Rules, esp for things like Battle Group, Task Force and Attached Units etc.?

2) Is it worth pointing out that the primary purpose of 'Experience' is to determine the 'Quality' setting of the Battle Group, Attached Units and Task Force AND that for the Battle Group and Attached, purchase quality is determined by the Battle Group Sheet at the end of each battle. Therefore, only Task Force quality is determined using the rule (56?)?

3) Info sheet error (p5) - Example refers to selecting Dawn where Dusk has been rolled up? Presumably Dawn needs to change?

4) Info sheet (p1) - Need to change from 'from Green, hopefully to Crack.....' to 'from Regular...........'

5) Is it worth suggesting that as players get better and better and work themselves up the player rating list (e.g. green - elite), they may wish to look at upping the computer experience to 2 and then 3 etc. and start of as regular or even green again?

6) When players select force mix (e.g. Infantry only) should they restrict purchases to those types of unit? E.g. should there be ANY armor in an infantry only force type?

Just for info - At the moment I am finding that applying the assault, attack and probe modifiers to the Task Force points ONLY is proving better than the applying to the total points value (inc Battle Group. It balances the game up more but still makes it tougher than the regular QB balance (which we currently get by applying the modifier to total points). Therefore Battle Group Cost + (Task Force / modifier) x 1 - casualties = QB Setting.

E.g. For an assault

600 (BG) + (500 TF/1.72=291) x (1 - (say 20%) .2) = 713 (800 Force Size setting) rather than

600 + 500 = 1100 x (1 -.2) = 880 / 1.72 = 512 (600 Force Size)

I also then use a random roll where 7+ (may change to 8) allows me to apply the modifier to the whole outfit.

See what you think.

Happy New Year

[ December 31, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[History Buff]

Originally posted by Apache:

[QB]6) When players select force mix (e.g. Infantry only) should they restrict purchases to those types of unit? E.g. should there be ANY armor in an infantry only force type?

Yes. If the current form of calculating experience remains in place. At the moment a unit in the thick of the fighting taking on swarms of the enemy taking out 50 of them gets the same experiene increase as a unit in the second line who got a lucky kill via a pot shot.

Suggestion : Make experience gain via infantary casulties at a rate of 1 exp point for every 5 caused. Or even 1 every 10 caused would still make a marked difference in showing which squads are in the front line fighting and ones in the second line going for pot shots.

On the note of experience.... the formula given to calculate experience after replacements is detrimental to the player. It goes back to the old problem of realism or enjoyment.

For Example. A mortar team takes 2 casulties leaving only one member left. Experience of that soldier is 8 since he was rattled and had lost his equipment. After replacements with two regular soldiers (Experience 10) the equation would look something like this.

((1 x 2 x 11) + (2 x 10)) / (3 x 2) = New Experience

22 + 20 / 6 = 7

Therefore lowering the experience even further even though two more experiened and confident soldiers have joined the unit.

Suggestion - Go back to the old way of calulating experiene after replacements.

(Men left x Experience After Battle) + (Replacements x Experience) / (total men in unit) = After Replacement Experience for unit.

The same situation calculated with this method would lead to:

(1 x 8) + (2 x 10) / 3 = After Replacement Experience* for unit.

8 + 20 / 3 = 9.3333333 or 9. A good mix of the two factors.

Just a note, what I'm pointing out is that any unit which suffers ore than fifty % casulties might as well go down to conscript level, even when replaced with reg troops.

Aren't I a sucker for the old ways.....

[ January 01, 2003, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: History Buff ]

[Biltong]

May this year be slightly boring, but leave you a lot happier than the last one

Happy New Year everybody

Apache/H-B

Going to the beach for the day - so I'll get to your suggestions t'night.... Lovely day here... 38.. 39... No wind or clouds... waves look good.... Thought you might want to know

[Apache]

Hmmmmmmm - here it's wet and grey (still looks spectacular mind). Had no really cold spell yet, hence so many damn bugs about, one of which hit me on Xmas Day (REALLY impressed about that). Hope you enjoy your day at the beach.

I must admit I do think experience needs to alter a bit. Not back to the way it was before entirely but, as HB points out, I just had a battle where some squads caused 8-10 infantry casualties and some caused 1-2. Problem I suppose is that squads are not ultimately purchased with separate quality settings. That said, I do think the company should have to perform to some degree and prove it, otherwise it may be tempting to hold them back and let AFVs and arty score the kills etc. Still not sure what's best.

On the Favour Sheet - Where we have the new boxes below Veh etc and -3x for example, would it be better to remove the dividing line between Veh and -3x and centre the -3x in the box?

[ January 01, 2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Apache]

Just played another Probe which brought to mind a couple of thoughts:

1) Why do we use a multiplier of x2 when calculating experience? Sure it's in the threads/docs somewhere but can't find it.

2) Still think experience needs a slight change. I had two squads of 10 each in the Probe. Both lost 1 and replacements were regular (10). Both caused casualties too and both therefore got 11.3 (11) on the experience calculation (Battle Group Sheet). Difference was squad 1 caused 1 casualty and squad 2 caused 12!! Surely that can't be right? What about giving infantry a point for every 5 infantry casualties or at least 2 points if squad causes 5+ casualties.

3) Do we need to stress to players that if they do not get casualties they merely fill in the 'Experience after battle' figure in the Experience after replacements' box? People may otherwise go and do the full equation, dividing the end figure by the 10 man squad x2 and find their experience plumetting Perhaps include a no loss example in the note?

4) I am still not too happy with tank crew experience. If a tank is KOd and the crew live, if the tank started with 10 exp it comes back as a 9, not too bad considering they got it blown up! However, another tank, gets one crew member killed, causes 50+ infantry casualties and is still going at the end still only scores a 9.8 (10). Back where he started. Not sure if it needs looking it but I just get the feeling there should be more of a gap between the KO crew and the still going crew at the end of the battle. Perhaps there is a need for 1 point for either 10+ or 20+ infantry casualties (not bad shooting is it).

[ January 01, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Agua]

Yes, please: someone put this in .pdf.

[Apache]

Hi Agua, how are you? Happy New year etc. Our pdf expert is back shortly and will doubtless get cracking on this.

[SuperSulo]

First, Happy New Year (+2 days, I'm late... )!

Some things:

Experience calc:

History Buff said

For Example. A mortar team takes 2 casulties leaving only one member left. Experience of that soldier is 8 since he was rattled and had lost his equipment. After replacements with two regular soldiers (Experience 10) the equation would look something like this.

((1 x 2 x 11) + (2 x 10)) / (3 x 2) = New Experience

22 + 20 / 6 = 7

That is incorrect. He used 11 instead of 8. So the new experience would be 16 + 20 / 6 = 6 !

I do think the exp. calc equation is wrong... See what happens if a whole reg (10 exp) squad got wiped out and get replaced with 10 new reg (10 exp) men:

((0 x 2 x 10) + (10 x 10)) / (10 x 2) = 5

I know, "can't buy a crack team" and all that, but this is beyond realism, imho. I use ((remaining men * 2) + new men) as the divider, that gives in the example above a new experence of 10.

I also use "remaining men" and "new men" quite different in the equation: if the replacement is more experienced than the remaining men AND their number is more than 30% of the total squad size (ie 4 new vets to a 10 men regular squad), I use the vets as "remaining men", counting their experience level twice. The thinking being that 4 or more vets (who probably know eachother and so forth) brings more to the squads than 6 or less regulars.

Not very KISS of me, but since when did that stop me? MiG I say.

As for preventing the CO (me!) killing of the squads to get better replacements, that's no problem, 1) I love my men, I would never hurt them on purpose. 2) I don't know what replacement I will get, could be green or worse....

Apache asked:

1) Why do we use a multiplier of x2 when calculating experience? Sure it's in the threads/docs somewhere but can't find it.

If you read what I wrote above, I think you see it, but it was introduced to simply make the experence of your (more experienced?) men count twice against the (green?) replacements.

Experience gain: I too think the official rules are in need of some tweeking. Both for infantry and tanks. Maybe 1 pt for every 10s of casualties caused or so for infantry and 1 pt for every 20 for tanks. Hmm the PzIIc isn't a big infantry killer... maybe 1 pt for every 10 for it too.

Thankfully I'm now confident enough to bend even my own rules for the sake of gameplay/"realism", in my latest battle MY company HQ (6 guys, myself included) performed very well, charging in the front (sometimes alone) through thick forest against evil partisans. We killed 13 men, 7 in hand-to-hand combat, and didn't lose a single man ourself. I gave them 2 experience points for that.

But I fear the partisans will get their revenge... in the next/current battle, allied "probe" at night, I have 0 pts taskforce, just my Battle Group with 180 pts attached units (an 88, 150mm inf gun and an ATR, not much use at night...) against 1680 pts partisans... That is well over a 2:1 ratio (without the useless guns), some "probe" eh! Maybe I should retreat and just take the defeat... We'll see

[Apache]

When you look at general casualty rates I think a squad that causes 12 is going some. On that basis should it be 1 point for every 5. If not, at the VERY least I'd have thought 2 for 10+ is more reasonable than the current 1 whether you cause 1 or 21

[ January 02, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Apache:

Is there a need for a glossary of terms in the Intro Doc and/or Rules, esp for things like Battle Group, Task Force and Attached Units etc.?

Good idea – will pass it on to the Scalpel

Is it worth pointing out that the primary purpose of 'Experience' is to determine the 'Quality' setting of the Battle Group, Attached Units and Task Force AND that for the Battle Group and Attached, purchase quality is determined by the Battle Group Sheet at the end of each battle. Therefore, only Task Force quality is determined using the rule (56?)?

Listed – to be checked and clarified – well picked up!

Info sheet error (p5) - Example refers to selecting Dawn where Dusk has been rolled up? Presumably Dawn needs to change?

Info Sheet? P5?

Fixed

Info sheet (p1) - Need to change from 'from Green, hopefully to Crack.....' to 'from Regular...........'

Fixed

Is it worth suggesting that as players get better and better and work themselves up the player rating list (e.g. green - elite), they may wish to look at upping the computer experience to 2 and then 3 etc. and start of as regular or even green again?

Lets first see if someone can finish the whole campaign (41 > 45) as an Elite Player

When players select force mix (e.g. Infantry only) should they restrict purchases to those types of unit? E.g. should there be ANY armor in an infantry only force type?

You have a great chance for Inf only battles for the first couple of months… I thought it better to give players a chance (reduced by: “Axis Force Mix: Infantry -3;”) of having armor since most players would get bored with inf only battles.

Remember: you are in command of a Battle Group.

Just for info - At the moment I am finding that applying the assault, attack and probe modifiers to the Task Force points ONLY is proving better …

I like this! I’m also concerned that the modifiers make the rules too easy. I’ll list your suggestion.

History Buff/Apache

Replacement Formula revisited.

This formula has been revised and revised a number of times. Max went to great lengths and devised a whole lot of formulas and spreadsheets with graphs to state his case. I played with various formulas/combinations for days on end. If you look at the last 2 pages? of the previous thread, you will see a detailed explanation of the why’s and wherefores. However - we might come to some sort of compromise - see below.

Apache

I just had a battle where some squads caused 8-10 infantry casualties and some caused 1-2. Problem I suppose is that squads are not ultimately purchased with separate quality settings. That said, I do think the company should have to perform to some degree and prove it, otherwise it may be tempting to hold them back and let AFVs and arty score the kills etc. Still not sure what's best.

To be honest I would also like it. BUT the old problem: 4 years to go and Crack troops will kill the campaign faster than anything else you can think of. Lets put it this way: If you ever manage to get a Veteran Company you will truly be a great commander

In real life this was also the case: With the crap replacements (esp. later) and the high casualties suffered in the East it was a miracle if you could get a whole company to be Veteran on average. A squad maybe yes, but a whole company – extremely difficult and unlikely.

The bottom line: I cannot risk a player having his Company as Crack after X battles, becoming bored because the campaign is too easy and dropping out before the end of 41!!

This campaign will be tough and will get tougher every year. If you want a vet or crack company – you will have to earn them the hard way! By keeping them alive!

Can be done – but you better be f…ing good!!

Now how do I get you guys off my back..?

1 extra exp point for:

CO's 6+ kills

Squads 15+ kills

Tank hunter & Flame Thrower teams and Sharpshooters 6+ kills

LMG's 10+ kills

HMG's 20+ kills

Mortars smaller than 81mm 10+ kills

Mortars equal or greater than 81mm 20+ kills

Guns smaller than 40mm 10+ kills

Guns from and including 40mm up to and including 80mm 20+ kills

Guns greater than 80mm 40+ kills

Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 40mm 15+ kills

Armored vehicles with guns larger than 30mm 30+ kills

What did I forget?

On the Favour Sheet - Where we have the new boxes below Veh etc and -3x for example, would it be better to remove the dividing line between Veh and -3x and centre the -3x in the box?

Say I lost 4 vehicles. The idea is: As I look through the map I tick what I find in the relevant boxes (in the space provided after the 'X'). Eg.: ‘-3 x 1 1 1 1’.

I.e.: ‘–3 x 4’ and use the empty box below it to record the total: -12

Why do we use a multiplier of x2 when calculating experience? Sure it's in the threads/docs somewhere but can't find it.

2nd Thread – search on Andy – It was his invention that I bastardized It reduces the effect of the replacements (whether it be up or down). Long thread about the why somewhere in 2nd week of December?

Do we need to stress to players that if they do not get casualties they merely fill in the 'Experience after battle' figure in the Experience after replacements' box? People may otherwise go and do the full equation, dividing the end figure by the 10 man squad x2 and find their experience plummeting. Perhaps include a no loss example in the note?

My 1st instinct would be that they would deserve it :cool:

OK I’ll be nice: listed.

SuperSulo

“I do think the exp. calc equation is wrong... See what happens if a whole reg (10 exp) squad got wiped out and get replaced with 10 new reg (10 exp) men:

((0 x 2 x 10) + (10 x 10)) / (10 x 2) = 5

I know, "can't buy a crack team" and all that, but this is beyond realism, imho. I use ((remaining men * 2) + new men) as the divider, that gives in the example above a new experence of 10.”

Hmmm 5 is a bit low. My gut feel would be 6 or 7.

Reason being 10 new guys will take some months to gell into a team that reflects their average exp: 10.

As it is, I'm worried that the Axis have it too easy. A change here (in the player's favor) will have to be counter ballanced by a change somewhere else (in the Allied favor) e.g.: Apaches Assault/Attack/Probe modifier suggestion above.

But there's one definite limit to any possible change(s): Replacements can never be allowed to be a sure way of upgrading crappy units!

The bottom line must always be: Keep your men alive! Don’t get them killed!!

Maybe someone can come up with a compromise formula? Something between the 'men left x 2' and the 'old straight replacement' formula?

I'll trade it for Apache's suggestion re: " assault, attack and probe modifiers to the Task Force points only".

“….in the next/current battle, allied "probe" at night, I have 0 pts taskforce, just my Battle Group with 180 pts attached units (an 88, 150mm inf gun and an ATR, not much use at night...) against 1680 pts partisans... That is well over a 2:1 ratio (without the useless guns), some "probe" eh! Maybe I should retreat and just take the defeat... We'll see”

Zero Task Force?! How did that happen? Inf = 1; Vehicle & Armor both less than 5, but what about Arty/Air – which month are you in?

BTW – You don’t always have to run: A tactic I’ve used with some success: Take & hold on to a small flag furthest away from the others with everything you have – When the Allies counter attack you might kill enough to gain a minor vic or better

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Biltong:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by History Buff:

Anyone got the Rules 1.5 in pdf format yet?

Or - does anyone know how I can make a PDF set for H-Buff? Scooby normally does this, but he's away till the 1st (I think).</font>

[SuperSulo]

Originally posted by Biltong:

In real life this was also the case: With the crap replacements (esp. later) and the high casualties suffered in the East it was a miracle if you could get a whole company to be Veteran on average. A squad maybe yes, but a whole company – extremely difficult and unlikely.

Ahh, the joy of using the scenario editor for your campaign... you really should try it, it's not that much more work.

Originally posted by Biltong:

Now how do I get you guys off my back..?

1 extra exp point for:

CO's 6+ kills

Squads 15+ kills

Tank hunter & Flame Thrower teams and Sharpshooters 6+ kills

LMG's 10+ kills

HMG's 20+ kills

Mortars smaller than 81mm 10+ kills

Mortars equal or greater than 81mm 20+ kills

Guns smaller than 40mm 10+ kills

Guns from and including 40mm up to and including 80mm 20+ kills

Guns greater than 80mm 40+ kills

Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 40mm 15+ kills

Armored vehicles with guns larger than 30mm 30+ kills

What did I forget?

Me likes! Some things:

Sharpshooters +6 kills... they only get 10 shots. Maybe should be +4 kills or something. I don't know how effective they are though, haven't been assigned any yet.

Mortars smaller than 81mm 10+ kills

VERY difficult getting 10+ kills with a 50mm mortar.

"Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 40mm 15+ kills

Armored vehicles with guns larger than 30mm 30+ kills"

You ment "larger than 40mm" in the last line there, right? I don't know about the 30+ kills, I seems to "always" get 30+ with my 75mm PzIVE, and not very often with the 50mm PzIIIG. Maybe it should be:

"Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 50mm 25+ kills

Armored vehicles with guns larger than 50mm 35+ kills"

Hmm but then the 20mm'ers gets the short stick, no way they can get 25 kills... Perhaps there should be 3 categories for the panzers, just like for guns... 15+/25+/35+ ?

Originally posted by Biltong:

Hmmm 5 is a bit low. My gut feel would be 6 or 7.

Reason being 10 new guys will take some months to gell into a team that reflects their average exp: 10.

But it isn't new guys, it's 10 regular soldiers of the German Army. Maybe their old company was decimated and the remains were shifted around as replacements. Maybe they all know eachother and are a well knitted fighting machine? Hmm I guess I should have them on a temporary lower experience level for a battle, so they can get into the company, the NCO get to know the CO and so on... I'll see what I'll do.

Originally posted by Biltong:

As it is, I'm worried that the Axis have it too easy. A change here (in the player's favor) will have to be counter ballanced by a change somewhere else (in the Allied favor) e.g.: Apaches Assault/Attack/Probe modifier suggestion above.

But there's one definite limit to any possible change(s): Replacements can never be allowed to be a sure way of upgrading crappy units!

The bottom line must always be: Keep your men alive! Don’t get them killed!!

Heh, and I'm worried about the winter... There are some really horrifying modifiers there.

And lately I have found it nearly impossible to NOT get any casualties in my squads, if they are at the front line. A hidden partisan squad opens up from 300m when my squad cross a ~10m gap in the shielding woods - 2 dead men. A split squad "recons" ahead towards some woods. Slaughtered. Damn partisans. Oh and another fun thing: Mines. I lost 4 men to those "coward's weapon".

But yes, I have noticed that when the handicap is at "none", the AI seems to be too easy to beat (ie at the old 1.4, 1.5, 1.72 ratios). I'll try that "assault, attack and probe modifiers to the Task Force points only" and see if that make things "worse".

Originally posted by Biltong:

Zero Task Force?! How did that happen? Inf = 1; Vehicle & Armor both less than 5, but what about Arty/Air – which month are you in?

Hehe you forget, I play a bastard version. Sometimes I get 0 taskforce, sometimes 2500.

Originally posted by Biltong:

BTW – You don’t always have to run: A tactic I’ve used with some success: Take & hold on to a small flag furthest away from the others with everything you have – When the Allies counter attack you might kill enough to gain a minor vic or better

Biltong

That sounds like cheating! Now I have spread my troops thin, hope my automatic weapons will make the difference. It will be a bloody battle, I'm sure.

Oh and fighting partisans brought up the old "favor for infantry kills"-issue again. I made this rules for myself:

Friendly Forces

Casualties

per 50

-10x

Enemy

Casualties

per 50

7x

Same for Won/Lost/Drawn battle, thinking that whatever the outcome, the higher ups will always feel the same about casualties. I got the numbers from thinking "50 men, ~ a platoon, ~ equals a tank". I'm not suggesting that you add these rules, but they made sense to me.

[Agua]

Originally posted by Apache:

1) Is there a need for a glossary of terms in the Intro Doc and/or Rules, esp for things like Battle Group, Task Force and Attached Units etc.?

Yes, Please. I can't make "hide nor hair" of this. For the first battle, do you include those extra points that you rolled up for infantry / support, vehicle / armour / large arty? Is this the "provisional force" that is excluded from the first battle or what?

How do you determine the point size to make the battle if it's, say, an "Axis Assault"? is it whatever point size, as an assault, is closest to the 653 points for the motorized infantry coy, pz II, III & IV?

Sorry, but these basic portions of the rules are very unclear.

Is there an FAQ anywhere?

[Ichthys]

SuperSulo makes a good point...

Heh, and I'm worried about the winter... There are some really horrifying modifiers there.

Once we hit winter we will be losing nearly half our force every battle before we even engage the enemy. In fact I already had a battle like that, it was only 10% casualties, but they all came from my Company, none from the task force (the task force was all armored cars and artillery, none of which were reduced).

Even a good player doesn't have much chance of keeping a strong force with that kind of attrition.

- Andy

[Apache]

Agua,

FAQ will be my 'job' once we have the rules finalised. We had planned one earlier but with the rules constantly changing (albeit less now), it would entail a major re-write every time. Should not be too long though.

Biltong is arranging for the glossary to go up (perhaps with the next set of amendments?) - a week or so?

In short:

Battle Group = The core infantry company and AFVs of your force (the ones you get/use every time).

Attached Units = You roll for these at end of each battle and may get some points allowing you to keep up to 4 units (in total - IIRC). Does NOT include any AFVs. They generally get 'cleared out' every now and then as a result of an Emergency Re-organisation. Otherwise, you keep them until they get eliminated in action. It will probably take you a few battles to get the 4 mind. Personally, I do not use this rule. I save up the points over a few battles and buy something useful (often sticking to non AFVs) but I do allow them to get absorbed with any Re-Org.

Task Force: The others that change each battle and which are rolled up separately in the parameters. Comprises Infantry/Support and Armour etc. etc.

Points: You always put in the points that your Battle Group (Inf Co and core AFVs) cost on the parameter sheet. Then roll up for whatever else you will get by way of a Task Force. You do that whether it's Assault, Attack, Probe or whatever (the rules themselves do modify the dice rolls for the Task Force and will, for instance, increase your roll in certain areas of you have drawn an Axis Attack game).

Once everything has been rolled for, the points are totalled up, that value is used as the basis to select the game point setting. If you're are playing any kind of Axis defence or ME you merely set the points for your QB at the closest rounded up value you can get to the total points you rolled (e.g. 873 points = set 900). If you are playing an Axis assault, attack or probe the game throws in modifiers that we have to take account of so as not to get ourselves outgunned. At present we therefore use the equation in the rules which, amongst other things, results in our points being divided by 1.72, 1.5 and 1.4 for assault, attack and probe respectively. You then set THAT figure (again rounded up to the nearest) when playing. We are toying with another option at the moment which only applies the modifiers to the Axis Task Force (extra) units. This ends up with the game still balancing up more, but not so much as applying it to the whole force.

Hope this helps :confused:

Feel free to mail me with any queries.

[ January 04, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Agua]

Thanks Apache. It appears that I performed the setup for the first battle correctly last night before seeing your comments this morning, just by sort of half-reasoning through it.

An FAQ will be a big help for folks wanting to try this out.

This was an extremely ambitious project, and I'm very impressed with the effort put into it.

[Biltong]

Superulo

Ahh, the joy of using the scenario editor for your campaign... you really should try it, it's not that much more work.

I can’t remember the downside… Imagine one would be deciding on number & placement of flags – what else? No way of using pre-designed maps – is there?

Apache has just typed up his Major Battle Rules… How about posting a summary re how to do it; what the downside/upside is etc...

I’m sure there will be other guys interested?

Sharpshooters +6 kills... they only get 10 shots. Maybe should be +4 kills or something. I don't know how effective they are though, haven't been assigned any yet.

Hmmm – you’re right – I’ve never had 6 kills with a shooter yet. 4 it is. See rest below.

Mortars smaller than 81mm 10+ kills

VERY difficult getting 10+ kills with a 50mm mortar.

"Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 40mm 15+ kills

Armored vehicles with guns larger than 30mm 30+ kills"

You ment "larger than 40mm" in the last line there, right? I don't know about the 30+ kills, I seems to "always" get 30+ with my 75mm PzIVE, and not very often with the 50mm PzIIIG. Maybe it should be:

"Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 50mm 25+ kills

Armored vehicles with guns larger than 50mm 35+ kills"

Hmm but then the 20mm'ers gets the short stick, no way they can get 25 kills... Perhaps there should be 3 categories for the panzers, just like for guns... 15+/25+/35+ ?

Good feedback SuperS…

Had a look at the points again – decided that a regular player should get at least 3 or 4 exp points per battle, so I made it a bit easier overall.

Killing Exp gain

1 extra exp point for:

CO's 5+ inf kills

Squads 12+ inf kills

Tank hunter & Flame Thrower teams 5+ inf kills

Sharpshooters 4+ inf kills

LMG's 7+ inf kills

HMG's 14+ inf kills

Mortars 50mm 5+ inf kills

Mortars 81mm 15+ inf kills

Guns smaller than 40mm 8+ inf kills

Guns from and including 40mm up to and including 74mm as well as 37mm flak & 20mm quad flak 15+ inf kills

Guns greater than 74mm 30+ inf kills

Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 35mm 10+ inf kills

Armored vehicles with armament from and including 35mm up to and including 50mm as well as all flak vehicles and flammpanzers 20+ inf kills.

Armored vehicles with armament larger than 50mm 30+ inf kills

Arty spotters – nada.

Better?

SuperS

“But it isn't new guys, it's 10 regular soldiers of the German Army. Maybe their old company was decimated and the remains were shifted around as replacements. Maybe they all know each other and are a well knitted fighting machine?”

Sure that is possible, but how often did that happen? I think most of the time the replacements would’ve dribbled in, in singles or two’s. Once in a while, maybe, 2 guys that knew each other. A whole squad sent somewhere as replacements? Not impossible, but I think unlikely.

As for 10 regulars/vets from different units gelling fast… think of any team sport (soccer/football/rugby/baseball – whatever) How long does it take before a team gets it together… sorts out who does what; what tactics to use when etc. etc. etc….

I’m a rugby fan and if a club buys a bunch of top guys it doesn’t mean ****…. It will still take them many months to get it together (if ever). Quite often a new team of hotshots will get hammered by a crappy little team that have played together for a long time.

I think a Squad where you’re playing for life is a bit more complex than most team sports. All though: the motivation is better than just money..

SuperS & Andy

“I'm worried about the winter... There are some really horrifying modifiers there.”

“….Even a good player doesn't have much chance of keeping a strong force with that kind of attrition.”

I’m also worried about the winter… I can just imagine the moaning & bitching that’s going to come streaming in

Every winter 41/42/43/44 is going to be horrible… My concern is that players might just give up…

Just thought of something…. Maybe I should bring in an escape rule where, if you had horrendous losses for, say, 3 battles in a row you get send home for a month to recuperate/refit etc? Just to help the guys past General Winter…

Agua,

The Scalpel is busy with a ‘Walk Through’ for first time players and right at the top he has a glossary of terms. There’s no release date as yet, but it should be sometime in the next 4 to 6 weeks or so…. It’s a major job he’s undertaken and being The Scalpel it will have to be near perfect.